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A/C in 2000 Safari had to be charged every year!

4K views 32 replies 14 participants last post by  dennis7815 
#1 ·
This is a trip down memory lane...

I mentioned the 2000 GMC Safari Glaval/Auto Form conversion my parents bought brand new in Virginia Beach, in May 2000. The van itself was built like a brick s**thouse. GM hit one out of the park when it designed the 4.3L Vortec V6, and everybody who has ever driven an Astro/Safari knows that the turning radius is often better than a 4-door sedan. When my parents first test drove the very van we ended up buying, the salesman took us to a parking lot (I was along for the ride too) and pointed out the van's particularly tight turning circle by having my mom and my dad drive it in a circle. They were impressed. It was May and the van had been on the lot since January, so dad ended up paying like $24K for a brand new van with an MSRP of well over $30K. Like I said, the van was very dependable and never broke down, but there was one very annoying problem...

We owned it for 4 years and less than 36K miles, and the A/C had to be recharged EVERY YEAR! I've never seen a 1996-2005 Astro/Safari conversion with the traditional REAR HEAT/REAR A/C switch, just REAR FAN if equipped. That's what ours had. The front A/C in our van worked great when charged, but still couldn't come close to the brand 2004 Odyssey we traded it for, and had for 9 years/130K+ miles (NEVER serviced the A/C in the Odyssey).

The first summer we had the 2000 Safari, we had a huge family reunion at my grandma's lakefront vacation homes in Maine (she actually did have TWO next door to each other and still owns one), and one time when my mom had the Safari filled almost to capacity with relatives 40+ years of age, she recalls that everybody in the back was complaining about being too hot even with the "rear A/C" on, and she had to freeze herself out by cranking the front A/C to make up for it. Most of these same relatives complained about it being too cold when they rode in the Odyssey in the middle of a heat wave with the A/C on it's lowest setting.

So, for the 3 years we owned the van, getting the system charged with R134a was covered under the factory warranty. What annoyed me was that the dealer was never able to actually fix the A/C. It blew cold when charged, but always leaked and had to be recharged every spring. In 2004, the van still had less than 36K miles, but the 3-year part of the warranty was up. My parents traded it for the Odyssey. I typed the VIN from the window sticker into CARFAX in 2016 and found out that our old conversion van is still alive and well in Ohio with no reported accidents.

Believe it or not, even in 2000, the Safari was only the 2nd vehicle we'd ever owned with R134a. The other vehicle which we still owned at the time was a 1996 Pathfinder. Every other vehicle we had prior to (or in conjunction with) the Pathfinder after I was born had been older than 1994 and thus used R-12 (1990 Toyota Camry, 1992 Dodge Dakota pickup, 1993 S-10 Blazer, 1990 Mazda B2600 pickup). My parents actually take care of their vehicles so we get many years of use out of them.

I've been told that Glaval was not a very good company and that's why they went out of business. As for the A/C always leaking, my dad's theory is that the conversion company did a half-assed job of tapping the rear ventilation system into what was never intended to be a dual-zone system, and that if the factory front-only A/C system had been left alone, it never would have leaked.

I've talked to a lot of Astro/Safari owners about their vans, and while a few have never had a problem with the A/C, most say that at a minimum they are recharging the system annually. People with pre-1994 vans that came from the factory with R-12 and never got retrofitted to R134a seem to have better luck... This includes a beater 1993 Chevy Astro SWB cargo van with about 350K miles, which I've seen personally and yes, still has fully functional A/C.

What do you guys think?
 
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#4 ·
97cargocrawler said:
I installed a factory AC system myself a few years back. Blows 38deg F at the vents still. I think you got a lemon and I think whomever you spoke to about having theirs recharged every year were all morons.
So can you tell us how you really feel? :clap:
 
#5 ·
zach914v8 said:
97cargocrawler said:
I installed a factory AC system myself a few years back. Blows 38deg F at the vents still. I think you got a lemon and I think whomever you spoke to about having theirs recharged every year were all morons.
So can you tell us how you really feel? :clap:
He asked what I thought. Anyone who fills their AC yearly falls into one of two categories of moron:

Moron #1: Environmentally irresponsible idiot who blindly refills the AC on their own and cares not one bit that it's leaking.

Moron #2: Person who gladly pays someone $500 to $1000 yearly to recharge the system and thinks that's a normal routine maintenance cost.
 
#7 ·
97cargocrawler said:
zach914v8 said:
97cargocrawler said:
I installed a factory AC system myself a few years back. Blows 38deg F at the vents still. I think you got a lemon and I think whomever you spoke to about having theirs recharged every year were all morons.
So can you tell us how you really feel? :clap:
He asked what I thought. Anyone who fills their AC yearly falls into one of two categories of moron:

Moron #1: Environmentally irresponsible idiot who blindly refills the AC on their own and cares not one bit that it's leaking.

Moron #2: Person who gladly pays someone $500 to $1000 yearly to recharge the system and thinks that's a normal routine maintenance cost.
If shops out there are getting $500 to $1000 dollars to recharge an a/c system, then my shops low prices make me the moron. Rate hike underway!
 
#8 ·
I rarely hear of anyone having theirs repaired for less than $500. No matter what the shop actually does, typically one is charged for reclamation and recycling of refrigerant, flush, parts, labor and recharge amount of R134A. That's a few hours labor at over $100 per hour plus the parts. No reputable mechanic is gonna say "yeah I will just top it off and you're good to go."
 
#9 ·
97cargocrawler said:
I rarely hear of anyone having theirs repaired for less than $500. No matter what the shop actually does, typically one is charged for reclamation and recycling of refrigerant, flush, parts, labor and recharge amount of R134A. That's a few hours labor at over $100 per hour plus the parts. No reputable mechanic is gonna say "yeah I will just top it off and you're good to go."
I am a reputable mechanic, that isn't far off from the truth. But in my case since I am getting paid like 2 hours for a job that takes 20 minutes, im going to throw some dye in there and find the freaking problem. Cause that's the bottom line, it has a problem, and its leaking. Any one with a UV light should be able to tell you what is wrong and either fix it or tell you were to go that can...
 
#10 ·
Of course I agree that most a/c problems cost money to fix. The original OP said the dealer topped him off every year. My point was that I highly doubt anyone on the planet would pay $500 to $1000 a year for just that.
 
#11 ·
TurnNburn said:
97cargocrawler said:
I rarely hear of anyone having theirs repaired for less than $500. No matter what the shop actually does, typically one is charged for reclamation and recycling of refrigerant, flush, parts, labor and recharge amount of R134A. That's a few hours labor at over $100 per hour plus the parts. No reputable mechanic is gonna say "yeah I will just top it off and you're good to go."
I am a reputable mechanic, that isn't far off from the truth. But in my case since I am getting paid like 2 hours for a job that takes 20 minutes, im going to throw some dye in there and find the freaking problem. Cause that's the bottom line, it has a problem, and its leaking. Any one with a UV light should be able to tell you what is wrong and either fix it or tell you were to go that can...
Huh. What takes 20 minutes? Topping it off maybe. NOT fixing it. If you're charging 2 hours labor that should cover an overhaul of the system.

If I lived in TEXAS or CA and I was a moron, $500 for yearly AC repairs would probably feel like a necessary rape to survive in the heat. I do all my own work but from what I hear from friends having work done...it's always a few hundred bucks out the door no matter what the problem is. Even from those shade tree mechs who make people think they are getting a good deal.
 
#12 ·
I guess I'm moron #1.

I have to "top off" 3 of my vehicles every year. Leak detector does not expose any "detectable" leaks.
Seems once you "break the seal"... it's fairly common to have to top them off.

A 30lb tank of R134 lasts me for several years doing many charges... recharging others as well.
I was buying them cheap at Sam's Club.

It takes just a few moments... and all is ready for another hot season!
 
#13 ·
I was merely stating that "topping off" is not something we do at our shop, so when I do a job like this, its a complete inspection and recover, vacuum, recharge. I also replace the Schrader valves before the vacuum part since those so often leak after messing with them. Flat rate for that through Prodemand1 is 1.4 hours, and depending on humidity, takes about 20-30 minutes to do. If the system is bone dry and empty, I add some dye with some PAG oil to the system and while the machine is doing its thing I bust out my trusty UV light and track down the leak (and/or figure out other reasons the compressor isn't cycling on). Parts and labor out the door is probably 200 bucks tops. If your not fixing the problem, no amount of flushing or snake oil is going to stop fix it. I cant imagine how someone would pay that much(500-1000) for a problem over and over again and not be livid.
 
#14 ·
TurnNburn said:
I was merely stating that "topping off" is not something we do at our shop, so when I do a job like this, its a complete inspection and recover, vacuum, recharge. I also replace the Schrader valves before the vacuum part since those so often leak after messing with them. Flat rate for that through Prodemand1 is 1.4 hours, and depending on humidity, takes about 20-30 minutes to do. If the system is bone dry and empty, I add some dye with some PAG oil to the system and while the machine is doing its thing I bust out my trusty UV light and track down the leak (and/or figure out other reasons the compressor isn't cycling on). Parts and labor out the door is probably 200 bucks tops. If your not fixing the problem, no amount of flushing or snake oil is going to stop fix it. I cant imagine how someone would pay that much(500-1000) for a problem over and over again and not be livid.
So is spending a mere $200 a year less moronic?

Regardless of cost yearly service on what should be a sealed system should make the average person scratch their head a bit and wonder WTF.

Me personally I don't see any point in reclaiming, flushing and refilling if I didn't also do a complete overhaul: new canister, valves and o-rings. Why do all that just to tell the customer they have a leak still? AM I misunderstanding you? Is $200 a complete overhaul? If so, damn that's wayyyy friggin cheap.
 
#16 ·
Well that's not bad at all, assuming it IS an overhaul. I consider an overhaul replacing all the components that wear. So that would mean every single o-ring replaced (and I do mean every fukin one), accumulator/drier, orifice valve, schrader valves, PAG oil, flushing detergent and 2 to 3lbs of R134A. If you can do that for under $200 out the door I think I know people who will drive out of their way to pay those prices!
:thumbup:
 
#17 ·
My compressor recently went TU. The shop replaced the compressor and and evaporator (the thing next to the heater). All quality parts. 1000 bucks out the door. However, no cooling effect. Took it back, the crap from the compressor worked it's way to the rear expansion valve plugging it. In GM's infinite wisdom, that wear part was literally buried requiring the complete removal of the rear A/C system. The shop ate the 8 hours of labor and charged me 100 bucks for the expansion valve because they felt bad missing the problem the first time around.

The A/C works ok but I think they didn't put enough R134 in due to fear of overcharging the system. The system is inherently weak and burdensome on the engine. Realistically, I would rather put a small 12V system on the roof and call it a day.
 
#20 ·
If you are replacing the valves, don't you have to vacuum the system? If so, shouldn't you change the receiver/ dryer?
I'm trying to learn 'cause I gotta do my system here soon.
1 can of UV and one of red die didn't show any visible leaks, so now I gotta crawl under, check rear AC and lines, all that CRAP.
 
#21 ·
Wimp to replace the a/c schrader valve you need to capture the freon, then replace the valves. Most shops have a machine to do this. Most DIY guys do the moron thing and vent into the atmosphere. Once the freon is gone replace the valves. The hook up a vacuum pump and vac it down for about 30mins. Thats ensure no moisture is trapped in the system. Most shops have a fancy machine that will do this for them, but it can be done by DIY guy with the right tools. Just swapping valves, I don't replace the drier. Now if I replace any major component I replace the receiver drier. Major part replacements as in a manifold hose or a compressor or condenser, ect... I always replace the drier and the orifice tube(or)expansion valve. Good insurance and no reason not to. I do pre fill them with a couple ounces of oil. How much oil depends on the total system capacity, the I wing it a bit but usually around an ounce or 2.
 
#22 ·
Side note: HF has a vacuum pump that will do this job just fine, along with a set of gauges.

Yes, my husband has all the fancy tools, but he's a commercial HVAC-R master. You don't necessarily need the expensive tools for the occasional job.
 
#24 ·
zach914v8 said:
All joking aside, are you for real? Do you have to spray that thing every couple of months?
Don't have to at all, I guess, is one answer.

Everytime I add a bumper, ladder, light, this or that, another opportunity to try a new camo technique. Bug poop? No prob, paint over it. It's a constant project.

Look at it like where most people would WASH their cars, I PAINT mine.

Lump
 
#26 ·
This thread has been eating at me, so I would like to address some of the issues here. The first issue is having to pay $500 to $1000 per year to be topped up. Sorry, I just do not see this happening ever. If a car comes in with a low freon issue like Burn said first step is to inject UV dye oil in the system and top up freon. Run the system and check for leaks with uv light and sniffer. Most are instantly apparent at that point and some others are not. If the car in question is 7 or 8 oz low in a system that holds 30 or so ounces and I have spent an hour or two looking for leaks I will give it back to the customer and tell them to drive it around until the a/c starts to feel cool not cold. When the car comes back 99.9999% of the time the leak is easy to spot because enough of the UV dye has escaped. Sometimes the time frame for this could be 7 or 8 months or even longer because the leak is that slow. In these cases the first visit to top the system and inject dye is about $85. Then when the car makes it's way back in the repairs to fix the leak can range from hundreds to thousands.

I have a customer that has a Volvo 850 and this exact scenario played out. What ended up happening when the car came back for us to address the leak it was obvious his evaporator core was leaking very slowly. That happens to be a dash pull job that would cost him around $2500. The leak is so slow that It takes about 2 year for him to loose 1 can of freon. The customer in this case decided that because his leak is so slow that he would rather just top the system for $85 every year and a half/2years than pay for a dash pull and all the crap that goes with that. I would be more than willing to get in there to do the job correctly, but at the end of the day it's the customers choice.
 
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