Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » January 15th 2015, 4:42am

I just inspected mine a little more The trolly pulley thing doesn't actually "latch" in the track. The latching takes place with the two male studs that are hard mounted in the front and rear of the opening when they mate with the female, scissor action bits in the door (those pieces you sometimes have to manually open with a screwdriver blade).

So if we modified the length or the swing angle/articulation of the trolly pully arm, it wouldn't HAVE to come all the way to it's normal end/rest position. All it has to do is allow the rear female latch to meet with the male stud.

But like I mentioned earlier, I'm reluctant to start cutting up my welded on bracket to experiment, not knowing exactly how far I can "get away with" the process of lengthening.

And I'm having trouble picturing what the articulated arm will do in that example that Bert found. I'm not even sure why that guy would have wanted to get is door open farther. He doesn't have wide tires to speak of.

One thing I note is that in order to pull the pin on the slider arm, we'll have to remove the latch above it. That means a lot of blind linkage fiddling, greasy arms etc. Nothing I'm unfamiliar with or adverse to. But it does temper the "experimental" aspect of modifying this thing.


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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » January 15th 2015, 1:53pm

In Berts pic, the extension arm folds out against the door, the trolley does not run to the end of the track but stops in it's arc leaving the pin out near the edge of the door rather than to the inside of the body.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby icebrrg3rd » January 15th 2015, 7:33pm

Lumpy wrote:...One thing I note is that in order to pull the pin on the slider arm, we'll have to remove the latch above it. That means a lot of blind linkage fiddling, greasy arms etc. Nothing I'm unfamiliar with or adverse to. But it does temper the "experimental" aspect of modifying this thing.


Lump


Actually, you don't have to fiddle with the linkages, when I replaced my slider, I removed the 3 screws, pushed the latch back, and had access to the pin. Once the pin is in/out, you just move the latch back and thread in the screws. They are countersunk (dimples in the metal) so you don't have to re-align the latch. See pic of my old damaged door, the latch is just moved back.

DoorFix03.jpg


WoodButcher wrote:In Berts pic, the extension arm folds out against the door, the trolley does not run to the end of the track but stops in it's arc leaving the pin out near the edge of the door rather than to the inside of the body.


I was wondering if he left it attached, or just inserted/removed the bolt & pin every time he opened the slider. I have an idea about extending the slider, but I don't want the flexible aspect that linkage looks to have. I need my door to work w/o special help, as my kids are always climbing in & out.

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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » January 15th 2015, 9:49pm

Thanks Ice, for that info about just moving aside the latch. How about that pin? Is it a monster like door hinge pins or is it relatively easy to get out?

I too wander about the segmented arm thing and if it requires some special and deliberate moves to get it open and or closed. And if it stays in the open-most position once there.

I spent a couple hrs looking and measuring things this morning. The more I do that, the more I lean toward cutting the bottom several inches off the door and hard mounting that to the step well. Then rubber gasket the upper, moving part of the door.


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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby chevy57bert » January 16th 2015, 12:01am

Lumpy wrote:I spent a couple hrs looking and measuring things this morning. The more I do that, the more I lean toward cutting the bottom several inches off the door and hard mounting that to the step well. Then rubber gasket the upper, moving part of the door.



That`s a Good idea Lump....
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby 97cargocrawler » January 16th 2015, 1:33am

Cut it, weld it, make the pocket storage for house batteries, weld up some rock slider steps.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » January 16th 2015, 1:56am

97cargocrawler wrote:Cut it, weld it, make the pocket storage for house batteries, weld up some rock slider steps.


Gun storage
Fold out poker table
Vagina guitar holder


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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby icebrrg3rd » January 16th 2015, 6:56pm

Lumpy wrote:Thanks Ice, for that info about just moving aside the latch. How about that pin? Is it a monster like door hinge pins or is it relatively easy to get out?...


It has a safety clip device on it, two metal tangs that keep the pin from sliding up and out. You could squeeze the tangs close to get it out, but I broke the tangs off and it slides out real easy. I didn't replace the clip, so every now & then the pin walks it way up and starts to come out. It can't fall out, but it mis-aligns the door and won't close properly.

This is for my '91, don't know if all years are the same.

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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby CoasterCoaster is online! » January 16th 2015, 7:08pm

how about a gull wing door and fold down steps??

:D
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » January 17th 2015, 2:31am

Coaster wrote:how about a gull wing door and fold down steps??

:D


I think that would require an 18mm wrench and those are hard to come by.


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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 9th 2015, 4:16am

I wish one of you smart guys picked up this ball and ran with it so I could copy your work,,,

I'm really surprised no one picked up on this. Those photo's bert put up will work and it is an add in part, no need to change the van so it is completely reversible. I'm on revision 3. When I get it I'll post up here but if you want to see my pain I put the details here.
viewtopic.php?f=127&t=17922&p=644081#p644081
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 9th 2015, 11:57pm

OK. done did, I cut and pasted this from my build thread,

I wrote:
This is the steel I picked up from McMaster-Carr
89955K819 Easy-to-Weld 4130 Alloy Steel Round Tube, .563" OD, .120" Wall Thickness
8910K266 Low-Carbon Steel Rectangular Bar, 3/16" Thick, 1-1/2" Width
and I also used a bit of 1" by 3/16" to extend the short tube away from the centerline giving it tube room to pivot.

Another fault I found in revisions 1 & 2 was using 5/16" bolts or pins. Way too much slop and play in the pivots. The stock pin is metric I believe but using my drill gauge I found 11/32" to be pretty good. I found a couple old pins laying around my shop, chased the tubes through on the drill press so that's in the plan for rev 3.


There it is.
revision 4
36009

36017

36025

The final that works is rev 6 or 7, dunno. :shrug:
36033

36041

In any case the final length of the 1 1/2" steel is 4", the tubes are 3 3/4" O.C.
You'll note a small arc in the wide steel, you can see it in the 3rd pic.
The door works, opens with a little push / pull outward and when sliding pull outward must be kept on the rear so the pivot does not close against the body. Closing is the same deal and the final push should be done w/ two hands on the outer edge of the door. Don't expect Aunt Frannie and her triplets to pull this off, open the door for the old bat and call it good.


EDIT!- I forgot to mention a 1/4" chunk of 1" steel used between the shorter tube and the 1 1/2" plate for an offset.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 15th 2015, 3:13am

Another update to this, I made another adjustment.
I moved the large wheel in the roller assembly. I found the bracket wanted to rub inside the groove just below the track. The roller assembly has a lot of room to move up and down in the track, at least 3/16" if not more. I put a hydraulic jack under the door, disconnect the roller from the new bracket and take the roller out. Slide it forward to the door opening and it lifts right out. I drilled the rivet back of the vertical roller, punched it out, used a round file to oval the hole an 1/8" inch lower in the bracket and welded it back in.
All back together the roller bracket rides 1/8" higher, no rubbing and the door is aligned nicely.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby survival bill » February 15th 2015, 5:59am

Looks like all you need to do is shave down the side of the tire easy breezy! :twisted:
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 15th 2015, 4:04pm

Yeah Bill,
that or narrow tires. :whack:
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » February 15th 2015, 5:43pm

I just made two prototypes of "The Woodbutchstender" slider door extender brackets. Both from .120 flat and .063 wall .500 tube. Drilled out the stock locations for 3/8 pins/bolts. Took several hundred pics. Still working on another version and test fitting them all. Got interrupted by that darn door lock thing locking closed, you know if you push on the thing while it's open. Took a few minutes to clear that. My inner door bedliner spray is a little too close to the lock mechanism.. :doh:

Welding in my camo shorts and tennis shoes.

Heading back out now to work more. Pics when there's pics.


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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 15th 2015, 5:59pm

Lumpy wrote:Welding in my camo shorts and tennis shoes.

Lump


I hate you... :x
:lol:

When I forgot to put on my welding apron I got a slag burn on my leg. It's more painful now in the winter to my wallet than it is to my leg. Holes in the insulated bib overalls, jeans and at least one pair of long johns.

Have you had some success? I can't wait to see.
I envy you your winter weather.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby markmitch » February 15th 2015, 6:37pm

Not sure if this would be an idea for anyone but on another van site I seen an Astro whereas the owner took the slider off and made hinges and put two or three shock type things to hold it open so as the door was kinda like a gull wing instead of the slider. The owner of said van is also a member here. He goes by DaveAstro.
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby WoodButcherWoodButcher is online! » February 15th 2015, 6:56pm

I gave that some thought too, in fact I really like the idea but it would limit parking choices. You couldn't open the door when parked within three or four feet of any obstacle.
In a camper or beach setup the gull wing would be ideal, instant shade tree. :thumbup:
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Re: Solving the Slider Door with Big Tires Problem

Postby Lumpy [OP] » February 16th 2015, 7:39am

Here we go...

My ver 3.0 meets with success. Here's the metamorph... the progression. Many pics follow.


VER 1.0 -

Since WoodButcher says the OC spacing of the two bolt/bushing things is 3-3/4 inch, and since he did most of his trial and error experiments with that dimension, I figure I'd start by getting that measurement as close as possible. I set up my blocks to give me exactly 3-3/4 inch between two 3/8-16 bolts/studs. I made the flat bar piece longer than needed. My idea was to get the bolt spacing RIGHT, weld on the long flat bar piece and then cut/grind off the excess -


Image

Image

Image


Spacing here, 3-48/64 inch.. :dunce:

Image


Cutting off the excess piece of flat stock -

Image




The tubing is .500 inch, .063 wall. Results in an ID that's just a tad OVER 3/8. To mark the tubing for cutting I first measured the needed length in the bracket with a digital caliper, then transferred that caliper measurement to the tubing to be cut.

Mark out the approximate area to be cut with permanant marker -

Image


Then use the caliper to scribe a cut line in the marker ink -

Image

Image


Take it to the bandsaw -

Image




I made the bolts from 3/8-16 allthread rod. First cut to length -

Image


Weld on a nut -

Image

Image


Then, as I do with a lot of my nuts and bolts, run it through a die to be sure the threads are clear -

Image




My working diagram. Rough drawing of the stock brackets and hardware, drawn on the back of a plastic street spam sign -

Image




Drill out the stock bushings to 3/8 inch -

Image

Image




Mounting the ver 1.0 extender -

Image


The stock sheetmetal in the area of the door side attachment is kind of gerflugled. I ended up snipping some of that shrapnel out to make room for the bolt head (later changed to a nut) -

Image

Image

Image


No pics here to celebrate failure. It didn't work. It held the door away from the tire nicely but it wouldn't close. I tried putting a mild bend in it. I tried putting a radical bend in it. I welded on spacers. No joy. Trying to analyze the "why won't it close" is difficult because you can't SEE what's happening when the door closes. It's a lot of guesswork ... "If that thing THERE were .125 shorter, maybe that would allow that thing OVER THERE to come closer when closing" etc.



So...

VER 2.0 -

This one is same bolt spacing. Same flat stock thickness (.120"). Same tube dimensions. But I made the body side of the flat stock nore narrow. Door side = 1.25 inch. Body side = 1.0 inch. Let's see how that one works -


Image


Again the flat stock is much longer than theory suggests. I'll weld it so the bolt to bolt spacing is 3-3/4 inch and then, like the ver 1 extender, cut off the excess -

Image


On the DOOR side of the bracket(s) I tacked a nut to the upper side of the stock U shaped bracket. Much easier to thread a bolt in from below. Plus there's less hardware hanging down into the lock area when the door is closed. Pic shows world's ugliest tack welds. Thing resembles some kind of alien larvae monster -

Image


Whenever the door was open and the hardware disconnected, I kept the door in the neighborhood with a simple floor jack and cribbing blocks -

Image



Here's the ver 2.0 in the fixtures, ready for tack. Spacers under the flat bar stock bring the pieces to the appropriate heights and square them to each other. The rectangular piece near the bottom of the pic will be the standoff spacer for the smaller tube (the van body side tube) -

Image

Image


Here's the last of the ver 1.0 iterations that failed (upper) and the newer ver 2.0 (Lower) -

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Here's the completed ver 2.0, hot off the press -

Image



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Couldn't ask for a more beautiful stack-O-dimes ... :crying: -

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Alright. Put the thing together. Both bolts now come from the bottom, nuts on top. I chose to use washers because...well because -

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When you repeatedly remove and install the same part again and again, you begin to value the air ratchet more and more -

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Here's a little Mod I made to the van side bracket. With an angle grinder, I removed about .250 inch of metal from the side of the bracket. This is where the new extension bracket will ride -

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Here's the new extender bracket showing it's range of motion -

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Here's a mod to the mod I thought up while watching the thing do it's articulation. If we don't want the extension piece to flip rearward any more than this -

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Weld in a little piece of steel here, that will keep that bracket from rotating any farther than straight out, away from the side of the van -

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If this works, I'll have about 5 inches of tire to door clearance ... :bouncy:

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Optimistic findings. The door shuts and latches -

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Fit and lineup on the front edge of the door looks pretty good -

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But the rear edge of the door is not at all well aligned. There's a space about a thumb's worth that I can peer into and see both the lock and past that into the interior of the van -

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OK. ver 2.0 failed. Again analyzing in the blind (literally) I guessed that my extender piece was too LONG. So I drew out and cut a new piece. This one would space the bolts 1/4" closer together, at 3.50 OC spacing. All other measurements the same...

VER 3.0 -

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Tubing length is the same. This time, rather than measuring and transferring the measurement, I used the original pieces as a marking guide. Ink, scribe to the original's dimensions, cut -

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Weld on a little 1/8" tab to space the van side of the flat bar away from the tube just a tiny bit -

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More of the world's ugliest welds. I'm using the wrong wire/wrong settings/I'm a total idiot, pick your excuse. I'm great with a grinder -

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All three versions side by side -

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Welding: I was drunk, it was windy, I used the wrong gas...Oh Phrook, I just suck as a welder. Esp when it comes to really close up small stuff. <Carlin> I can't even SEE the *******. Better come back in an hour </Carlin> -

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Stick it in and bolt it up -

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Hey I ground one of the eyeballs out of the alien larvae weld monster -

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If it works, I've got a fist's worth of space where I previously had 0.6 inch -

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It works - :banana: - Opens, closes, locks, aligns itself when closing. Still needs the articulating bracket to be "setup" the right way before closing. And I think that little weld on tab mod I mentioned above might fix that. Most importantly it works and I have more space. I can finally get rid of those stupid looking ghetto crawler small tires and get some damn BIG TIRES on the thing...Oh wait...I have to check the front for clearance -

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Lump
Last edited by Lumpy on February 16th 2015, 3:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Original Poster [OP]
User avatar
Lumpy
250k+ Miles
250k+ Miles
Firing on 8 Cylinders (L7)
Firing on 8 Cylinders (L7)
Years of Membership: Lumpy has been a member for 6 full yearsLumpy has been a member for 6 full yearsLumpy has been a member for 6 full yearsLumpy has been a member for 6 full yearsLumpy has been a member for 6 full yearsLumpy has been a member for 6 full years
Posts: 11000
Topics: 261
Joined: April 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ USA
Gender: Male
Year: 1989
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: 11 in. lift Camo

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