V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby chevymaher [OP] » November 23rd 2016, 2:38pm

dafrogtoad wrote:
I had the engine built by a reputable builder. However he did NOT know it was going in a TBI vehicle (he's more racing/classic oriented) and I didn't know the difference, so the cam is just a bit hot for this application. It ran, ran pretty damn good, but would not run/idle/run to my satisfaction.

Yep computer was definately better and easier in this case. I had the same issue with my last motor. Took a month of sundays to work that out.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby markmitch » November 23rd 2016, 4:36pm

personally I would have just went with a carb and stand alone trans controller or swapped the cam to a milder cam and considered it a lesson learned but then I am really into my van and won't get rid of it. Mark
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 23rd 2016, 7:24pm

Computers are vastly better at a whole lot of things, including running an engine and controlling a transmission. They are also getting better at it every year. However, they can be intimidating to the unprepared.

My guess is that the cam used doesn't allow the engine to generate enough vacuum, which is pretty hard on a fuel injection system that depends on the MAP sensor readings to determine airflow, and that is used to know how much fuel to inject.

So someone would want to switch a fuel system that can handle that, like a carb or a MAF based injection system, change out the cam to one compatible with the current fueling system.


How much do you want for the V8 engine for the V0 Astro?
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby chevymaher [OP] » November 24th 2016, 1:33pm

AstroWill wrote:Computers are vastly better at a whole lot of things, including running an engine and controlling a transmission. They are also getting better at it every year. However, they can be intimidating to the unprepared.

And obviously intimidating to the professionals with all the tools who are prepared. I followed every lead anyone ever gave. I went to forums and ask the "masters" for years. My brother did it in a dyno room for years. Nobody could tune the damn thing. It is a hit and miss proposition. No one will even say we can do it. It is bring it in leave it a week and we will see what we can do. Don't sound like a exact science to me. It is cheaper to buy a old school high horse motor than to have a stock one tuned for a few more HP.

I can tune a car in less than a afternoon if it is old school.

It is a situation of diminishing returns. Thousands for 5 HP is not a good deal. But if you got money to just piss away seems like the place to do it.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 24th 2016, 10:23pm

chevymaher wrote:
AstroWill wrote:Computers are vastly better at a whole lot of things, including running an engine and controlling a transmission. They are also getting better at it every year. However, they can be intimidating to the unprepared.


chevymaher wrote:And obviously intimidating to the professionals with all the tools who are prepared.

Having the tools doesn't make you a professional though, just because you have a hammer doesn't mean you can build a quality house. Even people with experience can still build a crappy house(I have seen it many times). Hell, anyone can throw together an engine as well, but that doesn't mean it's going to last.

chevymaher wrote:It is cheaper to buy a old school high horse motor than to have a stock one tuned for a few more HP.
I can tune a car in less than a afternoon if it is old school.
It is a situation of diminishing returns. Thousands for 5 HP is not a good deal. But if you got money to just piss away seems like the place to do it.


Of course we can take it to extremes, but that doesn't help anyone. For the average person, it's not all about HP, and for them FI is simply better in numerous ways. There are more than a billion vehicles on the roads out there, most of them have FI and work just fine.

The situation here that we were talking about is not a fault of the TBI, or any other fueling system, it's a fault of mismatching the cam to the existing system.

I think we could go on and on about carb vs efi, but they both have their pros and cons. But lets face it, when it comes to daily drivers, 99%+ of us are driving a fuel injected vehicle, how about you?
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby Mmusicman » November 25th 2016, 1:28am

AstroWill wrote:Computers are vastly better at a whole lot of things, including running an engine and controlling a transmission.

ALL depends on "your definition" of "better".

I would agree that computers are "better" at controlling air/fuel mixtures for better emissions. This is mandatory in some states or counties.. but not all. But there are lots of sensors and components necessary for this to happen. Fortunately, computer controlled engines have also gotten smart enough to tell you when one of these many components are failing. But it's not always so simple.

I "might" agree that computers "may" be better at offering the opportunity for better fuel economy (over nominally tuned carburetors) ... but as we've learned this ONLY applies when ALL the sensors are working perfectly. I can certainly show you where any number of numerous failing sensors or devices can cause the computer controlled engine to fail fuel economy miserably.. where a carburetor wouldn't care!

I've seen WAY too many posts about failing emissions, poor performance, and poor gas mileage on computer controlled vehicles. There are just SO MANY things that can throw them off in the real world! With a carburetor... you set it and forget it. That's it!

A carbureted engine with a nice aftermarket cam will give you simple and predictable excellent horsepower results. The range of course is mild to wild. A moderately cammed and simple properly carbureted V8 engine can get very nice fuel economy too... I've seen 15-18mpg on a 350-V8... same as a computer controlled V6. Just for the record... it takes the same amount of HP to push a vehicle down the road.. regardless of what is pushing it. If both types of engines are tuned properly under same conditions, then mileage should be essentially identical.

Computer controlled engines typically do NOT work well with higher overlap higher HP cams.. the technology is different. But they can offer some HP gains with fuel-injection on moderately cammed engines. Their differences may not be much... but each has their own advantages and disadvantages. There are race applications too, but not necessarily applicable to this discussion.

Carburetion is simple and works! You can "dial in" a carb with proper jetting to achieve the ideal14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. If you achieve this proper ratio... then it can not be beat. A computer controlled engine will attempt to achieve this ratio under numerous various conditions... but in some cases they may actually use more fuel to maintain this ideal ratio. A properly jetted carb will still yield excellent results.

The biggest gain of the computer controlled engine is to maintain emissions... as well as to attempt to optimize fuel economy and engine performance.. but within the emissions standards. But performance and economy ARE attainable with "proper" carburetion too.

Finally though... if optimum emissions are not a primary concern, then carburetion can STILL be a very effective for economy and performance... while being much more simple, inexpensive, and reliable! One simple mechanical component... compared to many numerous sensors, electronic components, accessories, and a computer! To me, that makes a carburetor better! Simple and reliable is good!

A properly tuned carb will also run clean... but that's also relative.

My carbureted V8 is simple... I just turn the key and go! It relies on NO input from any other devices. I run clean, have excellent horsepower, and still get great fuel economy! In my opinion, the differences would be too small to matter or warrant the added expense and complexity of a computer controlled engine. For me... it just works.. and works GREAT!

If you have to meet emissions requirements and standards, then this discussion is pointless. Otherwise... old school (for numerous reasons) is "better" in my opinion! :D

PS: My transmission shifts JUST fine without a computer too! Much less costly to repair if needed as well.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby chevymaher [OP] » November 25th 2016, 1:42am

AstroWill wrote:

I think we could go on and on about carb vs efi, but they both have their pros and cons. But lets face it, when it comes to daily drivers, 99%+ of us are driving a fuel injected vehicle, how about you?

You know I do. I don't really have a choice. And I got really good at tuning them to. But I do have my stash of carb parts, HEI, for the van. And I am just waiting for the trans to wear out. Then it is out of there.

Damn thing is the EFI is the only thing I would want to keep. I really want a Holly unit. A user friendly design. But like I said it isn't worth the money to have. The only area I prefer a computer in. It is such a small gain it isn't worth it.

But the spark HEI. Better timing curve more reliable. Nothing but better.

And trans I want old style. All that shifting back and forth I can do without. Pick a gear any gear and stay in it. When I gas it it is time to shift and not a second before.

And everything musicman just said LOL. Beat me to the punch and went much more in depth. I been through this here so many times saying what he just said. I just threw the towel in nobody listens anyway.
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V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby sixsix » November 25th 2016, 2:13am

chevymaher wrote: ... nobody listens anyway.

I'm here ... Listening ... and Watching and...
Appreciating it all - The Van is running ( and everything else ) just fine.



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and Second, the type that can't.

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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby Mmusicman » November 25th 2016, 2:25am

Funny thing is... while I can admire an aftermarket EFI like the Holly unit... even if you "gave" it to me I'd probably turn it down. I REEEALLY like my simple old school carbureted engines! They just work! They just ALWAYS work! They just work GREAT! Great gas mileage.. great power... and many years of trouble-free service.

I'm a computer guy.. the I.T. guy for my company... and yet I prefer simple! I have no need for the small gains offered by the complexity of an involved system that I consider more prone to issues and failure. At least the aftermarkets have a few nice advantages though, over stock factory systems which you are forced with.

But that's me! To each his own. Plus I don't have to deal with tight emissions standards in my state. Obviously, not everyone is fortunate to have that choice.

HEI ignition is another EXCELLENT and simple solution! Completely self-contained... one wire and they work perfectly! (two wires if you have a tach). Extremely reliable and long lasting too. A substantial step up from the old points systems. I got a REALLY nice new Skip White unit for super cheap... (under $50). You can buy much more elaborate systems... but mostly wasted on moderately powered engines.

For me... it's about "value to horsepower and reliability" ratios! Spend the least and get the most value for the dollar! Reliability included too!
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 25th 2016, 3:17am

CM can we move this to a new thread? I enjoy playing devils advocate so next week I'm going to argue for the other side ;)

Mmusicman wrote:
AstroWill wrote:Computers are vastly better at a whole lot of things, including running an engine and controlling a transmission.

ALL depends on "your definition" of "better".
I would agree that computers are "better" at controlling air/fuel mixtures for better emissions. This is mandatory in some states or counties.. but not all. But there are lots of sensors and components necessary for this to happen. Fortunately, computer controlled engines have also gotten smart enough to tell you when one of these many components are failing. But it's not always so simple.


Let me define my definition of better in this case. EFI is better at the job of controlling air/fuel mixtures, period. Yes this matters for emissions, but also for changing conditions as well like temperatures and altitudes. For those that travel, the changing altitude alone would be an issue. Heck, I have a 5,000ft elevation change 20min from my house not to mention where our travels take us. Now of course that doesn't apply to everyone, some people have about 10ft of elevation change through their daily drives, and some have never even left their state, but still.
Mmusicman wrote:I "might" agree that computers "may" be better at offering the opportunity for better fuel economy (over nominally tuned carburetors) ... but as we've learned this ONLY applies when ALL the sensors are working perfectly. I can certainly show you where any number of numerous failing sensors or devices can cause the computer controlled engine to fail fuel economy miserably.. where a carburetor wouldn't care!


Of course, and carbs have to be rebuilt or replaced as well, eventually anything of a mechanical nature will eventually fail. Here is an example of one of the many dyno backed carb vs efi comparisons. http://www.corvetteonline.com/tech-stor ... elivery-2/ Note: they didn't even give the self learning computer time to learn, it was a base tune, oh well.

corvetteonline.com wrote:As expected, fuel consumption was on the average 15 lbs/hr less throughout the RPM range. A gallon of gasoline weighs about 6.1 pounds and at the current market price, that’s about eight dollars and hour savings. Saving eight bucks every hour you drive will eventually pay for the EFI conversion in fuel consumption alone.


Mmusicman wrote:I've seen WAY too many posts about failing emissions, poor performance, and poor gas mileage on computer controlled vehicles. There are just SO MANY things that can throw them off in the real world! With a carburetor... you set it and forget it. That's it!

Having a poor running vehicle isn't limted to any specific way of fueling an engine. If all of those vehicles had carbs, you would see WAY too many posts about them failing emissions as well.
Mmusicman wrote:I've seen 15-18mpg on a 350-V8... same as a computer controlled V6. Just for the record... it takes the same amount of HP to push a vehicle down the road.. regardless of what is pushing it. If both types of engines are tuned properly under same conditions, then mileage should be essentially identical.

I agree that a larger engine can get the same mileage as the smaller v6, regardless of fueling type used. I have a fuel injected SB350 in my Tiger as well, and the fuel mileage slightly improved over the v6 with the same type fueling system.
Mmusicman wrote:The biggest gain of the computer controlled engine is to maintain emissions... as well as to attempt to optimize fuel economy and engine performance.. but within the emissions standards. But performance and economy ARE attainable with "proper" carburetion too.

Even outside of emissions standards performance and economy are improved with EFI.
Mmusicman wrote:Finally though... if optimum emissions are not a primary concern, then carburetion can STILL be a very effective for economy and performance... while being much more simple, inexpensive, and reliable! One simple mechanical component... compared to many numerous sensors, electronic components, accessories, and a computer! To me, that makes a carburetor better! Simple and reliable is good!
Mmusicman wrote:A properly tuned carb will also run clean... but that's also relative.
My carbureted V8 is simple... I just turn the key and go! It relies on NO input from any other devices. I run clean, have excellent horsepower, and still get great fuel economy! In my opinion, the differences would be too small to matter or warrant the added expense and complexity of a computer controlled engine. For me... it just works.. and works GREAT!
If you have to meet emissions requirements and standards, then this discussion is pointless. Otherwise... old school (for numerous reasons) is "better" in my opinion! :D


Yep, for most of population in the USA, we have emissions to deal with, so it doesn't really matter. However, if carbs were running 'clean' while having excellent horsepower and still getting great fuel economy in all of the conditions encountered around the country, then we would still see them on modern engines.

Overall it really doesn't matter as long as it works for you. Because of emissions standards being raised across the board, some states have even been able to do away with having to have inspections, which is great for everyone as it leaves more choices available.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 25th 2016, 3:23am

chevymaher wrote:
AstroWill wrote:I think we could go on and on about carb vs efi, but they both have their pros and cons. But lets face it, when it comes to daily drivers, 99%+ of us are driving a fuel injected vehicle, how about you?

You know I do. I don't really have a choice. And I got really good at tuning them to. But I do have my stash of carb parts, HEI, for the van. And I am just waiting for the trans to wear out. Then it is out of there.

Damn thing is the EFI is the only thing I would want to keep. I really want a Holly unit. A user friendly design. But like I said it isn't worth the money to have. The only area I prefer a computer in. It is such a small gain it isn't worth it.

I know you do, as do virtually all of us, with a rare handful of carbs thrown in. Those Holly units are pretty darn sweet, but they sure are proud of them.

chevymaher wrote:But the spark HEI. Better timing curve more reliable. Nothing but better.

Indeed.

chevymaher wrote: I just threw the towel in nobody listens anyway.

Listening doesn't equal being converted :)

I have two carbed vehicles in the garage, doesn't mean that I have any less love for them.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby chevymaher [OP] » November 25th 2016, 3:47am

AstroWill wrote:CM can we move this to a new thread? I enjoy playing devils advocate so next week I'm going to argue for the other side ;)

Not now I am all lazy and fat from eating to much. To much work LOL. Tomorrow I can when I am feeling more frisky. Suggestions for a name of a thread.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 25th 2016, 3:55am

Thanksgiving, putting low flow toilets to the test!
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby chevymaher [OP] » November 25th 2016, 3:56am

AstroWill wrote:Thanksgiving, putting low flow toilets to the test!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: again that test will be tomorrow or the next day.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby dafrogtoad » November 25th 2016, 5:20am

Hmm..I don't know if I should be PO'd over the thread hijack or happy for the cool discussion...
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 25th 2016, 5:32am

dafrogtoad wrote:Hmm..I don't know if I should be PO'd over the thread hijack or happy for the cool discussion...


I was thinking the same thing about a for sale thread that isn't in the for sale section ;)
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby Big_kid » November 25th 2016, 2:15pm

Should we split the thread? Leave the relevant posts in "For Sale" and leave the rest here?
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby Mmusicman » November 25th 2016, 2:39pm

dafrogtoad wrote:Hmm..I don't know if I should be PO'd over the thread hijack or happy for the cool discussion...

There's always a chance this thread might have died, and the discussion kept it alive! 8-)

Sorry for the hijack (on my part). It's funny, when you post things here, you NEVER know how the discussion will turn out.

I have nothing more to say on the hijacked portion of the discussion.

Back to discussion of parts/van looking for new home! :D
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby AstroWill » November 25th 2016, 6:15pm

Big_kid wrote:Should we split the thread? Leave the relevant posts in "For Sale" and leave the rest here?


I think it would help the OP. I know that I browse the for sale section of other sites without going into, say, the interior section.
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Re: V-8 'Stro needs a new home

Postby Astro Pop » November 25th 2016, 9:23pm

I think AstroWill is right. I recall, somewhere in here, something about a vehicle for sale???
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