V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AndyH » December 13th 2016, 8:17pm

WOW...

Like i say, im not here to flame nor going to get into a pissing competition.

I plainly think your wrong, pure and simple.

Ref the V6 and its limitless issues, which honestly have driven me absolutely mad. They are because the Astro van and the GM EFI system is pretty much the first generation of *advanced* electronic control, and i use the advanced reference as a joke.
My point in this is, if you dont understand EFI, then a carb is the way forward for you. I still have carb powered bikes! I have grown up with carb powered everything and in the right place and vehicles i still like to see them.

My impression was (and still is) that some people on here remain firmly in the carb camp and truly believe EFI is the devils work, im here to say it is more efficient, cleaner, precise and way better for longevity of the mechanical internals than a bucket with a hole drilled in the bottom :wave: I will fight the corner for EFI anyday.
A carb has always been a compromise, it will never change, it cannot adapt and has reached the pinnacle of its evolution. Through various designs, developments the principal has remained constant and inevitably flawed.
As designers we always look for new ways of doing things, its our job and our nature. Once the limit of a technology has been reached then its clear to move on to new ideas and pastures new or the product will die.

If it wasnt for EFI, we would have no car industry left.

You are basing your vision on what you see, and your points you make are based upon your experience. That is contrary to the experience of every mainstream automotive design engineer, therefor i can only surmise that you do not wish to move forward or concede the argument.
We do not change things for the fun of it, GM are masters of this use and reuse technology approach, probably better than almost all other manufacturers (other than maybe Ford) but if technology proves to be reliable and cheap enough to produce in quantity then that is what happens.

I cannot see any benefit other than cost advantages in buying and using a carb over modern EFI. However, with that said, the issue with EFI is, and i openly admit this, is that it is almost impossible to modify a standard system to suit another vehicle / engine. This is where the cost comes into play.
As correctly stated at the start, the standard systems need a hell of a lot of knowledge even to get them remotely useable and they are always poorly done and end up giving more trouble than they are worth. Hence carbs keep hanging on in there as a cheap way to get fuel into an engine with minimum technological brain work...and that is where your argument wins.

Talk to the tech lads at Comp Cams, or any other manufacturer and they will say the same question, Carb or EFI? then its, what is your ECU, how is it configured?
A normal ECU cannot cope with the variations in sensor, injector, pick up, firing sequence, coil design and all the other variables, only truly aftermarket ECU's have this capability, and as you rightly say, thats expensive....VERY expensive. But going that route also opens up other advantages and accessories that we like to use and enjoy.

If i wanted a modern jellymould car then i would buy one...oh yeah, my daily drive is just that! I happen (like you) to like the older stuff, what i dont like is the electrical systems, and as we say, if its got t1ts or wheels, its gonna give ya trouble. IMHO our Astro issues are more often than not, electrical in nature. I have decided to completely throw the troublesome 1st gen electronics in the bin (sorry...trash) and update to something with more modern, reliable and adaptable.
You have followed a simpler and more traditional route, thats fine, however to say its better than EFI is simply not correct, it isnt!

It is however easier to do, more cost effective and in some ways more aesthetically pleasing.

The only winner in either route taken is the Astro itself, it becomes better because we modify it to suit an individual need and desire. However at the point of sale it then looses that bond and individuals aspirations.




Its simply that.

Peace out :rockon:
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 13th 2016, 8:46pm

BOYS BOYS PLEASE... you're BOTH pretty!

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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AndyH » December 13th 2016, 10:41pm

Haha, well i am...was, err i think.

Hey, my girlfriend is pretty anyhow.
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby chevymaher [OP] » December 13th 2016, 10:47pm

All that insulting condescending attitude save it. If you design them your sure doing a piss poor job making them user unfriendly. But that is the objective isn't it? Make it cost as much and be as hard to work on as possible to pad your wallet.

I do understand them and have to fix your junk when dealers guys can't. Unfortunately I get all the sad stories it is going to cost more than it is worth to fix a stupid computer issue. Here is the invoice what they gonna charge. Then I got to fix the POS so they can get to work and feed their families.

They total some cars over computers going out. Cars that would last forever if they were not designed that way.

Money involved is the biggest issue. For the price of your "Systems". To get chump change increases in power. You can buy a running engine with twice the horsepower as what you are trying to modify. I am sorry we are not rich enough to suit your highness. But bang per buck it is not cost effective way to go at all.

I drive a van and not a Ferrari because I ain't in Forbes magazine. I don't have a Villa on the cliff in Morocco. No maids or butlers. But my hillbilly azz has built things on the cheap that give the Ferrrati real problems on the bragging rights. I accept my station in life. And your self righteous bullcrap is is just that.

We are trying to help people have fun here. Achieve goals and dreams. Not drive them to the poor house. I got better things to spend my money on than things that make so little difference. Yea Yea it is making thousands of calculations per minute. But per dollar spent who is looking at whos tail lights.

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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby Mmusicman » December 13th 2016, 11:35pm

AndyH wrote:I cannot see any benefit other than cost advantages in buying and using a carb over modern EFI.

I actually gave you numerous reasons... and thought you would be smart enough to be able to understand them if I kept the answers simple. Apparently you are unable to comprehend.

AndyH wrote:You have followed a simpler and more traditional route, thats fine, however to say its better than EFI is simply not correct, it isnt!

Can you show me where that was said?
You really can't read and "comprehend" can you?

No matter... :shock:
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AstroWill » December 13th 2016, 11:55pm

The carb vs efi debate has been going on a long time and will for the foreseeable future. Ok, maybe it will go on for like 20 more years. We all have feelings one way or another but as long as we stay mostly friendly about the discussion it won't turn into a mess like on some other forums.

The last factory carb on the A/S vans was in 85, so with 99.9999% of A/S vans using EFI, yes, that is where you are going to see the problems on these forums and pretty much all vehicle forums because, well that is basically every vehicle out there.

The price gaps are going away, EFI is cheaper than ever and continues in that direction every day. You don't have to spend $5,000 to get EFI. Systems like Megasquirt can be used with so many different types of sensor systems, so it can be done relatively cheap if you have the skills/knowledge/desire.

If you can create more power and have more versatility, using less fuel and creating fewer emissions it just seems like a no-brainer to me.
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby Mmusicman » December 13th 2016, 11:57pm

Found this little gem from one of your posts!
Talk about eating your OWN words!
AndyH wrote:Im still planing the V8 engine build for the astro and was thinking of junking the uber crap CFSI injection and replacing it with an Edelbrock 71383 on AFR heads. I am so pissed with the performance and poor serviceabilty of the stock injection system, there are so many design flaws in it, its unbelievable !!!


I know YOUR type! :lol:
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AndyH » December 14th 2016, 12:04am

Ref the V6 and its limitless issues, which honestly have driven me absolutely mad. They are because the Astro van and the GM EFI system is pretty much the first generation of *advanced* electronic control, and i use the advanced reference as a joke.


I take it you cannot read either ?

But then the blind often find it difficult.

Exit stage left
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AstroWill » December 14th 2016, 12:04am

Mmusicman wrote:Found this little gem from one of your posts!
Talk about eating your OWN words!
AndyH wrote:Im still planing the V8 engine build for the astro and was thinking of junking the uber crap CFSI injection and replacing it with an Edelbrock 71383 on AFR heads. I am so pissed with the performance and poor serviceabilty of the stock injection system, there are so many design flaws in it, its unbelievable !!!


I know YOUR type! :lol:


I think we can all agree that the crap poppet injector system was crap.
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 14th 2016, 12:46am

Agreed.

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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby Mmusicman » December 14th 2016, 12:51am

AndyH wrote:You have followed a simpler and more traditional route, thats fine, however to say its better than EFI is simply not correct, it isnt!

Can .. you .. show .. me .. where .. that .. was .. said ?

Andy.. you STILL haven't answered my simple question.
(I'll type slower this time...)
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AstroWill » December 14th 2016, 12:59am

Still too fast for me ;)
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 14th 2016, 1:04am

Like Will said... this age-old debate will not be solved here. Let's be better than the other sites where people argue and piss in each others ears, whaddaya say?
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby Mmusicman » December 14th 2016, 2:02am

Wimpazz wrote:Like Will said... this age-old debate will not be solved here.

This isn't about an "age old debate"... it was a little more than that.
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 14th 2016, 2:06am

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Luv ya buddy
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby Lumpy » December 14th 2016, 2:45am

I've had both. FI seems simpler to me. The only engines I've ever had to "tune" had carbs. Not because they were troublesome, but because there's essentially nothing to tune in my FI engine. Replace the platinum plugs every bazillion miles, replace the cap and rotor every couple years. That's it. Nothing really fuel related except a filter now and then. I'm pretty sure I suffer the same number of fuel system related problems as anyone with my style FI. Just about every problem I've ever experienced is somehow vacuum related.

But either device, it's not about the person tuning it knowing how or having the tools. Trying to do anything with the wrong tools or insufficient homework is a problem looking for a universe to happen in. My horse would not likely do a very good job of tuning a carb'd engine. That doesn't make carb'd engines inherently problematic. So throw out the argument that "you don't know what you're doing" if you want to argue the two camps.

I find it a little persmekuous to suggest that the two guys who probably know the most about both, get grief from someone who suggests they just don't know what they're doing. Maybe persmekuous is too strong of a word. I'm pretty certain CM and MM know what they're doing and speak from a point of experience.

Simply to suggest that one is better than the other is malequaintent. Our Honda Accord requires next to zero maintenance. Yet I choose to drive a 27 year old Astro. Surely the Honda is "better" since it requires much less attention and money to keep it running. Fill it up once in a while and it gets 30 mpg. No greasable bearings. Plugs good for 150k. But it's not better FOR ME. Surely FI and carbs can exist on a similar plane.

I like petite red heads. I hope the guys that like fat Mexican chicks don't think I'm a hack or don't know what I'm talking about just because we don't like the same thing in goilz.


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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby markmitch » December 14th 2016, 2:59am

Personally I like TBI over other types of fuel systems including carbs. there easy to rebuild and modify and have a chip burned and your golden. I had a 305 all built with TBI and tuned and that little engine ran like a scalded a$$ dog
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 14th 2016, 3:23am

Wimpy likes petite Mexican chicks, that's why I married one ;)
I almost married a red head, would have been a HUGE mistake...go figure!
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby AstroWill » December 14th 2016, 3:42am

I'm like a chameleon, I can come in any color.
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Re: V-8 'Stro... split threadjack

Postby WimpazzWimpazz is online! » December 14th 2016, 3:51am

ohhh hooo SNAP!
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