Transmission wont shift into 3rd

[jeffster06]

as the subject says the transmission wont shift into 3rd. this is on a 99 safari rwd with 194k. just recently had the shifter solenoid changed because I had a check engine light on, also the mechanic made a comment of how i was starting off in second the whole time.anyways after picking up the van I was leaving the shop it shifts normal in first and second but when third is suppose to engage it acts as if i pushed a clutch pedal in (engine just free revs). the shop says I need a new transmission. now im sure they have a little better know how than me. but it seems a little odd to me that when i brought it there it drove fine with the exception of a check engine light. any way they possibly screwed something up? or did the transmission really just bite the big one?

[astro355]

Assuming that the transmission shifter into 3rd before, I find it really crappy that you had to drive it to find out it didn't go into third. I test drive all cars I work on before and after. To me, this would not be so bad if they fixed it, test drove it and then let you know it didn't go into third.

But to answer your question, I would immediately take it back to them and have them correct the problem. This isn't like you drove it for a couple weeks and then it didn't shift into third. It was that way as soon as you got it back. About your van starting in second gear, that should have also been corrected when the shifter solenoid was changed. The shifter solenoid would also be the first culprit I would look at involving your new problem with 3rd gear.

[jeffster06]

It drove perfectly fine before the solenoid was changed as for starting in second I never really noticed but i know 3rd gear and overdrive were working because it ran at highway speeds no problem now im lucky if i can get over 25. as for the shop i immediately went back to them that day and they said i'd need a new transmission which they quoted around $2000 for it. It does shift into first gear now it just doesn't go into third (engine just revs as said before) perhaps the new solenoid they put in is faulty? I do find it odd that they immediately jumped to saying change the transmission almost as if they are trying to make more money off me. I suppose I need to get a second opinion from a different shop as the shop I did bring it too is pushing replace the transmission. it's just becoming a pain because this will require me to tow it to another shop. is there anything on the transmission I could look at myself? I have worked on other cars in the past (clutch jobs, tranny replacements, etc), to see if maybe they're trying to pull a fast one on me?

[astro355]

Well, you would have to start with what they changed. There's really nothing to look at since its an internal part. I would not even take it to another shop. That shop will have to fix it. Sure, the solenoid could be faulty but more likely, something happened during the installation. I highly doubt you need a new trans (sorry, I can't say for sure, my crystal ball is broken). I lot of shops don't like to admit they did something wrong.

[jeffster06]

but if I were to take it to the shop and tell them to fix it there answer is going to be replace the transmission like they've said before. regardless if they screwed something up. meaning in taking it back im out more money. but I suppose if I take it to another shop they may end up charging me for the other shops screw up. hmm seems like im in a rock and a hard spot on this one. guess ill start asking more questions to the shop and see where that gets me. perhaps having them put the old solenoid ( if they still have it) back in and show me how it was messing up before would be a good start.

[astro355]

but if I were to take it to the shop and tell them to fix it there answer is going to be replace the transmission like they've said before. regardless if they screwed something up. meaning in taking it back im out more money. but I suppose if I take it to another shop they may end up charging me for the other shops screw up. hmm seems like im in a rock and a hard spot on this one. guess ill start asking more questions to the shop and see where that gets me. perhaps having them put the old solenoid ( if they still have it) back in and show me how it was messing up before would be a good start.

Yes, that would be the best idea.

Ill try to put this into perspective for you, when I was working full time on just GM automatic transmissions, my percentage of success was just under 60%. That is, every 5 transmissions I worked on (regardless of what type of work), I had to do additional work on 2 of them. That's an F and that was above factory/industry standards. 700R4/4L60E's are touchy transmissions when they don't work just right. Just don't let the guys at that shop try to pull one over on you.

[Matrixx]

Hi jeffster06
Just a thought here. I'm wondering if they didn't knock the 2-3 shift solenoid wiring off (or forgot to put it back on) when they replaced the 1-2 solenoid. They are pretty well right next to each other. You had it (3rd gear) when you went in. As mentioned, it could very well be a faulty 1-2 solenoid they just put in, either way, the changes they made did affect it.

It's obvious they aren't going to budge on this replacement thing, so I would take it to another shop, have them look at it, and if they find fault due to what the original transmission shop did then give them the bill and don't let them off the hook for it (including the tow bill). If they refuse, then file a complaint against them and it would be your choice to sue or not. Quite frankly the more I think about this the more I feel they are hiding something.

In a Nut Shell, you had 3rd gear when you went in and you don't know, don't let them blind side you with smoke and mirrors, if they refuse any responsibility, "Hang-Em". Companies like this is what gives everyone a bad name and they need to be called on the carpet for it, plain and simple. The ultimate decision will be yours jeffster06, this really angers me to no end when I see stuff like this being pulled off. Please keep us updated. Thanks.

[jeffster06]

The shop still isnt budging on the replace the transmission thing. where is this wiring located? is it easy to access im not afraid to get my hands dirty if neccessary. I have done transmissions swaps in the past just not on this van. I actually don't know anything about this van lol. I'm actually not really the owner its my in laws and i've been trying to help them out (having dealt with other cars in the past) they went and purchased a used transmission that im supposed to be putting in for them this weekend. not really the course of action I wanted to take but they're still believing the shop just dont want to pay the money or fight too hard for that matter. hopefully I can get this worked out where I dont end up replacing a good transmission. and they can get there money back for it (actually carried a 30 day return/warranty)

[Matrixx]

Hi jeffster06
Here is a link:
http://www.astrosafari.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=10
I made a post their with a link to LocDocs write up. If you have a look at the diagram I posted, then go to LocDocs write up, you will see the plug-ins I was referring to, located on the inside of the transmission, the pan will have to be dropped. Picture #6 is the best view of them, just make sure the plug-ins their are hooked up properly and locked into place with the locking clips on each one.

As for getting another transmission, the only concern I have here, is making sure you have the correct one for your year. Their has been some changes to them over the years (to many to keep up with (for me anyways)). I do know the 96-97 transmission will not fit your 99. In 98 they went to a "slightly" larger torque converter (3mm difference over all) is one example.

The important thing here if you do decide to swap transmissions, is to measure up the new from the old to make sure they match, if you see any thing off (measurement wise) I would wait until you have confirmation that it is acceptable, or what you need to do to make it acceptable. This isn't meant to scare you off on this project jeffster06 if you do decide to proceed with it, but to be "careful" and "methodical" in the process of swapping them.

Make sure the torque converter is seated in properly before attempting the install, they do have a tendency to work their way out of place when they aren't bolted up and could lead to a real miserable day when your trying to installing it. I wish you the best jeffster06, please keep us updated,Thanks.

PS: Here is a link to the Re & Re information, it's for 1996, but the process will be basically them same as yours. Their are links on the side as well to view different attachments that are on the transmission which will need to be removed (4L60E).
http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/09 ... oPages.htm

[jeffster06]

the transmission they purchased is from a 99 astro (My understanding is that they are the same). I'll have to take a look at the write up you posted. also I see you mentioned the connections are in the pan. I find this real odd now because if the shop in fact changed the shifter solenoid as they say they did they would have had to drain the transmission. now unless they put all the old fluid back in then they must not have done anything. reason i say that is the fluid that is in there is fairly black. and if they were to put new fluid in, it would have been a little closer to the correct color. i'll keep you updated with my findings

[astro355]

the transmission they purchased is from a 99 astro (My understanding is that they are the same). I'll have to take a look at the write up you posted. also I see you mentioned the connections are in the pan. I find this real odd now because if the shop in fact changed the shifter solenoid as they say they did they would have had to drain the transmission. now unless they put all the old fluid back in then they must not have done anything. reason i say that is the fluid that is in there is fairly black. and if they were to put new fluid in, it would have been a little closer to the correct color. i'll keep you updated with my findings

Granted they could not have changed ALL of the fluid. But still, it should not be black. You are correct, they would have to drop the pan and add more fluid once it was put back together. Seems odd that if there is a 30 day warranty, why they would want to fight so much and not do the right they. I hate shady garages.

[jeffster06]

oh sorry should have been a little clearer the used transmission they bought has a 30 day return/warranty. meaning if i can fix whatever is wrong with the transmission now they can get there money back for the used transmission. I plan on dropping the pan on Saturday too see what i can find (hoping for a bad connection) if I can't manage to find anything wrong or get it working the transmission will be getting pulled. mainly cause my in laws just want there van back in operation (they have been very patient so far). but if you guys have any other suggestions like extra things to look for let me know.

[Matrixx]

Hi jeffster06
One thing I do know, is you should have a new pan gasket if they did pull it, their is no way around that. At this point, the most important things to look for are connections. In side the pan as previously mentioned, and the connections at the transmission.

Their is another connection on the drivers side rail area you could check as well, just follow the harness from the transmission back to the computer, you will see it along the way. That particular plug-in is notorious for corroding because of it's location. I would recommend using Die-Electric grease as well on the plug-ins when you do have them apart. I find this to be a real help in corrosion prevention and is a GM recommendation.

Was their any black in the transmission fluid before taking it to the transmission shop? Have a look at the nuts and bolts holding the transmission in place to see if they have been recently used. Their is something very odd about this whole situation. At my friends shop, I can Re & Re one of these in less than an hour. I'm not saying they did this, but at this point from what you have mentioned, I wouldn't put anything past these people and would have a good look over. Me Paranoid? You bet, I have seen some "real" shading things being pulled off lately for a quick buck.

PS: Just a thought here, is not to do any work on this transmission until you know for certain it's the original one that came with this vehicle. You may be destroying evidence if you do, like the old pan gasket as proof they didn't even open it up. Look over the bell housing bolts and transmission support nuts for any signs of recent use first. Then proceed from their when you feel everything is the way it should be (original transmission).

Please keep us updated, Thanks.

[jeffster06]

all good things to look for and i'll be sure to check all of it. as for the black i never checked the fluid prior to all of this so i really don't know. but I do know when i mentioned they really needed to flush the transmission that. they had told me it hadn't been done in a long time (if ever) so the fluid being black seems to be fine (well not really fine but in this case yes). as for being paranoid about mechanics im right there with you. kinda the reason why i volunteered my self to help them. also another thing to note on this that has had me thinking a little is before all this happened they had a check engine light and the shops remedy was the shifter solenoid. which got the light to turn off and they passed emissions (the whole reason it ended up in the shop). now if they did manage to say unplug the 3rd/4th solenoid wouldn't the light come back on?

[zombie{[six]}]

"the fluid that is in there is fairly black"

^^^ That very well could be your problem. Dirty tranny oil will most definitely cause shifting issues

[Big_kid]

If the fluid is black, does it smell burnt? If so, the clutches are gone and a rebuild is in order.

[astro355]

"the fluid that is in there is fairly black"

^^^ That very well could be your problem. Dirty tranny oil will most definitely cause shifting issues

But there also lies another problem. Changing the fluid in a transmission with really crappy fluid could hurt it more. I have seen it happen a couple times where a car drove into the shop, had a trans fluid flushing/change and it didn't drive out of the shop. Bear with me hear so I can explain this.

This is a set distance between each steel and friction in the pack of any specific gear. When no fluid is present, there is no pressure on the steels and frictions and that gear is not transferring power. When fluid is channeled into that drum, the hydraulic pressure forces the frictions against the steels and that gear is engaged. When the frictions wear, the set distance between the steels and frictions increases causing slippage. Now, if the transmission fluid was not (never) changed, the friction material that wears off can circulate in the fluid and help to flip in the gap, so to speak.

Now, changing the fluid can remove this debris and suddenly the car has no gears. That is why its extremely important to change the transmission fluid.

[jeffster06]

don't think it smelt burnt. still could tell it was atf by smell. also they told me they were actually advised against doing a flush (probably because of what astro355 said)

[astro355]

don't think it smelt burnt. still could tell it was atf by smell. also they told me they were actually advised against doing a flush (probably because of what astro355 said)

Yep, that would be the reason. If it was burnt, it would smell like charcoal. But that doesn't mean it wasn't burnt in the past and then it was flushed. You never get all of the trans fluid out, especially from the torque convertor. So flushing it or just adding fluid would just mix it around. It would cover up the smell but not the color, I seen that one first hand.

[jeffster06]

well we just dropped the pan and the connection on the solenoid was good. I did notice the 1st/2nd gear solenoid is stuck in place (mounted well) where the 3rd/4th gear solenoid isnt (its only held in place by this little tab) my guess is that it shouldnt be able to move like the 1st/2nd solenoid. can anyone verify this?