Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby icebrrg3rd [OP] » November 1st 2010, 7:45pm

Since I have a 1st gen, I have two keys, both are single cut. One (round) for the doors and one (square) for the ignition. What I'm wondering is if (or when) they changed to a single double-cut key, and if it would be possible to swap it into the older vans. I would rather have just one key, and not trying to find which side the teeth are on in the dark. If this is something that is easily done, let me know. I know jy vans have the locks, but they usually are missing the keys. If this is possible, I'll make a post in the Wanted section.

Thanks, Andrew
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby toddb » November 1st 2010, 8:00pm

1997 has one key.

My 2 cents are you are going to have to live with 2 keys.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tex star detail » November 1st 2010, 8:23pm

I have the same problem. Nothing can really be done except use two keys....

I bought my van from my Dad, and he replaced the ignition.
Now I have a key for the Ignitioin and a key for the doors.
(BTW, I have a 2nd Gen)

Since then, I replaced the sliding door to a windowless slider from a 1st Gen. (Single sided key)
Now I have 3 keys! LOL

I called all of the locksmiths around and they said nothing can be done. I tried swapping the 1st Gen lock to a 2nd Gen, nut they were totally different.

I really need to get the ignition rekeyed to the door key so I only have 2 keys instead of 3
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby Phantom » November 1st 2010, 8:33pm

96 also use one key, if you replace your ignition switch and door locks with newer style you can use one key , you can get the locks easy from salvage yard vans and if you get them from different vans but still Gen 2 you can have the tumblers changed to fit one key , ignition switch the same way , I have replaced 3 door locks with salvage yard vans , I just examine each van for locks that are in very good condition and have the tumblers changed to fit my key . I get the locks when I get bigger items that cost more and so far they have not charged me for the cylinder locks and it costs like $15-20 bucks to have lock tumblers changed
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tex star detail » November 2nd 2010, 1:24am

Phantom,
I looked at every 1st AND 2ND Gen in the wrecking yard. None of the 2nd Gen locks would work in place of the 1st Gen lock (sliding door)
The back of the locks were different and the linkages wouldn't watch up to hook up. The locksmith(s) said the tumblers from a 1st gen lock (one sided cut key) couldn't be cut for a 2nd gen key (double sided key)
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby Phantom » November 2nd 2010, 2:01am

The cylinder locks should fit the hole , but the rod linkage would need to be swapped for the one on the van ,, what I was referring to was going from Gen 1 key to a Gen 2 key , by changing the lock and having the lock from a Gen 2 change tumblers to match a Gen 2 key , so first you would get a Gen 2 lock with a key , then you would have a key to have the tumblers mated to for the other locks . The outside door handle on the 1996 is exactly the same part , part number as the 1994 , in fact it is the only door handle that will work 94,95,96 , in 97 it changed somewhat in mid year , 97 had 2 designs and in 98 it only had one design , I actually have taken the locks off a 94 that had news ones on it and put them on my 96 , , , here is the part number for the door handle . I was told by one GM parts guy they were different locks , but another GM parts guy told me that the part numbers were superseded and changed but the part will still fit, they have for me at least

In order to get down to one key , you will have to change ignition switch to a Gen 2 as well and match the tumblers in the other locks to the ignition key , or you will still be at 2 different keys , I The last time I bought an ignition switch it had to be key cut when I bought it as it was a blank , I am not sure about the wiring , though it should be possible to wire it up .,

This is the sliding door handle

GM Part 15689043
Genuine GM HANDLE
http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/components/ ... 10905.html
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tex star detail » November 2nd 2010, 3:00am

Gotcha. Guess I need to do a little more research.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tedanderson » November 2nd 2010, 3:50am

You can actually make this work.

To give you some background information, our Gen 1 vans use the "E" keyway cylinders and "E" key blanks for the ignition. GM lock cylinders are named letters A-K and paired up in square and round key sets. For instance the A & B are paired together respectively to the square and round set, C & D and so on.. except for the E which is paired with the H.

I don't know which car in the GM lineup has an E cylinder in the door or a keyway that has enough tolerance to accept an E key but once you find out, a good locksmith can re-key the door cylinder to fit your ignition key.

The AMC Hornet and many of the cars in the AMC lineup of the 1970's used one key for everything. The ignition key fit all of the doors and this is also the case for International as their 26,000 lb. trucks use the square key for the door locks. You will probably also have to change out the latch on the back of the original cylinders and transfer them over to the new locks once we figure out which one works. It may come out of a caddy or a vette.. but next time I am in the JY, I am going to try my key in a few locks to see which car it actually goes into.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tedanderson » November 2nd 2010, 4:05am

Ok.. I did some more research and found this site:

http://www.camaros.org/keysandlocks.shtml

Based on what I am reading here, it seems like the wafers inside of the lock also determine which lettered keyway is accepted into the lock. So if my assumptions are correct, a locksmith can actually change the wafers/tumblers to match the side grooves on the ignition key.

Also I found out that they used the E cylinder on the door locks in 1969 and 1973 & 74 Camaros.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby icebrrg3rd [OP] » November 2nd 2010, 4:07pm

Phantom wrote:The cylinder locks should fit the hole , but the rod linkage would need to be swapped for the one on the van, what I was referring to was going from Gen 1 key to a Gen 2 key , by changing the lock and having the lock from a Gen 2 change tumblers to match a Gen 2 key , so first you would get a Gen 2 lock with a key , then you would have a key to have the tumblers mated to for the other locks . The outside door handle on the 1996 is exactly the same part , part number as the 1994 , in fact it is the only door handle that will work 94,95,96 , in 97 it changed somewhat in mid year , 97 had 2 designs and in 98 it only had one design , I actually have taken the locks off a 94 that had news ones on it and put them on my 96 , , , here is the part number for the door handle . I was told by one GM parts guy they were different locks , but another GM parts guy told me that the part numbers were superseded and changed but the part will still fit, they have for me at least

In order to get down to one key , you will have to change ignition switch to a Gen 2 as well and match the tumblers in the other locks to the ignition key , or you will still be at 2 different keys , I The last time I bought an ignition switch it had to be key cut when I bought it as it was a blank , I am not sure about the wiring , though it should be possible to wire it up .


That's kinda what I was looking for. I was pretty sure that the door locks would fit, that the linkages would probably need to be swapped over, but I wasn't sure how the linkages were attached to the cylinder and if there were any mounting differences. Also if the ignition cylinder was the same outside shape/dimension for both so that it would just swap out into my 1st gen column. I know I could get mis-matched sets re-keyed, but I would need them to be the same style before I'd do that.

And tedanderson, I want the double-cut key over a single-cut one, so your solution isn't quite what I'm looking for. Plus I'm sure I won't find any '69 Camaros in the jy. I do appreciate your research, tho. It might be what someone else is looking for. So :thumbup: for you.

I was just seeing if someone had done this already and had found out if it was compatible or if rework had to be done to make them fit. I guess I'll be trying it out on some jy vans in the future just to be sure.

Thanks, Andrew
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby Phantom » November 2nd 2010, 5:18pm

I just happen to have a lock and linkage here at the desk , The rod linkage is attached by a metal tab that has a plastic "push in" to insert & connect the rod , just pull on it and it comes off and push to attach it, the metal tab that is attached to the lock cylinder is attached by a small metal slide on clip , shaped like the clip that holds the cylinder to the door , just a lot smaller in size , but I doubt if that tab would need to be changed , most likely just the rod would be swapped , since the rod may be a different length or bent shape on different year or design.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tedanderson » November 2nd 2010, 6:11pm

icebrrg3rd wrote: And tedanderson, I want the double-cut key over a single-cut one, so your solution isn't quite what I'm looking for. Plus I'm sure I won't find any '69 Camaros in the jy. I do appreciate your research, tho. It might be what someone else is looking for. So :thumbup: for you.


Thanks for clarifying that. :) I will probably still do this for myself..and a writeup.. because I think that I'd like to have the single key convenience for the ignition and front doors. Then my round key will secure the cargo area so I can leave my van in a parking garage or with valet without any concern for my tools and personal items.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby rev_les » November 3rd 2010, 6:26am

FWIW....I start my '95 Astro with my 87 Suburban door key...lol
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby astroturf » November 3rd 2010, 12:59pm

rev_les wrote:FWIW....I start my '95 Astro with my 87 Suburban door key...lol


And how does this make your Astro feel?

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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby Big_kid » November 3rd 2010, 2:37pm

Don't lubricate your ignition lock then!
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby tedanderson » November 3rd 2010, 2:40pm

And how does this make your Astro feel?


That's exactly what I was wondering. :o
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby RECox286 » November 3rd 2010, 2:51pm

A thought. One key for everything? OK, insert the odd key into the ignition and break the darned thing off so you can't retract it. One key now!

Bob

Ive had more than 1 truck that the ignition tumbler was worn so bad that it would workwith a key as it always did; it would turn with out a key; the key could be removed while the truck was running; or you could just use a screwdriver to start the engine.

Either way, who's to know if they need a key or not? ...as long as the rest of the truck is lockable? ...break a window for entry? Security??? Ha.
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Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby icebrrg3rd [OP] » November 3rd 2010, 3:39pm

RECox286 wrote:A thought. One key for everything? OK, insert the odd key into the ignition and break the darned thing off so you can't retract it. One key now!

Bob

Ive had more than 1 truck that the ignition tumbler was worn so bad that it would workwith a key as it always did; it would turn with out a key; the key could be removed while the truck was running; or you could just use a screwdriver to start the engine.

Either way, who's to know if they need a key or not? ...as long as the rest of the truck is lockable? ...break a window for entry? Security??? Ha.


Well, I could do that, and leave it unlocked, and run with NO keys! :whack: Not quite what I want. Yeah, my old Camaro had the same ignition. Twist the ears on the cylinder and away it went. The floor shifter wasn't hooked up to the column so I could either rotate the part of the column and it would be "in gear" and you couldn't start it, or I could put the floor shifter into an actual gear and start it, pulling the car with the starter motor.

I've also thought of a remote to unlock, and a hidden switch to "arm" or "dis-arm" the car and install a start button. Then I come back to reality and my empty wallet.

Thanks for the comments, tho. If I do get around to this, I'll post it up for others if they want to do it.

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Alias (AKA): Andrew
Van Model Year: 1991
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: V-8 5-sp RWD Shorty

Re: Keys - 1st gen vs. 2nd gen

Postby Leeann_93 » November 5th 2010, 12:40am

icebrrg3rd wrote:Twist the ears on the cylinder and away it went.


We had an old Pontiac LeMans (either '69 or '70, I can't remember which) that was the same way. We actually had to lock the doors because you didn't need an ignition key - in fact, it wouldn't turn with the key inserted. For a while we had to use a screwdriver (when the key stopped working) and then we didn't need anything :lol:
'05 Astro AWD vin X
'02 Astro LS AWD vin X
'00 Astro LS AWD - WIP
'99 Safari XLE AWD - broke
'93 AWD EXT vin W - real broke
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Van Model Year: 2005
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
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