Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby vtstang66 [OP] » November 11th 2018, 7:54pm

The boots tore. Both sides.
IMG_20181024_095818643.jpg

There's a stiff collar in the boot, where it meets the post. Both lower control arms ripped wide open at that spot.
IMG_20181024_095403807.jpg

I installed them 10 months ago, and greased them until the boots bulged a bit, but not too much. I noticed the outsides were pretty greasy probably 4 months after that, and I greased them again. They might have already been torn at that point. I pulled it all apart a couple weeks ago to do the control arm bushings, and I found the above. I warrantied them out from Summit, but I really don't want to be doing them again in 10 more months!

What happened? I have a couple ideas but nothing I feel good about.

1) I had the torsion bars cranked pretty high. About 2 turns shy of max. When you do that, 2 things happen. a) The faces of the spindle and the control arm stop being parallel. So the ball joint and its boot are living in a sort of cockeyed environment. The pic here is of the suspension fully unloaded, but you can see what I'm talking about:
IMG_20181030_114659109.jpg

b) The other thing that happens is that the suspension can top out easier with the bars cranked, and actually get to the above point. I spent 6 months in Mexico driving over gigantic speed bumps, and I felt it top out quite often.
Could that have led to the failure of the boot?

2) There's a sharp edge where the rough cast meets the machined surface of the spindle. This edge doesn't seem to contact the area that failed on my boots, but it is sharp and it is in contact with the boot. I went ahead and hit it with a file to take the edge off. Before:
IMG_20181028_100325963.jpg

and after:
IMG_20181028_100635905.jpg


So when I put them back this time, I did lower the van back down. I took the rear shackles down a hole, which got me about 3/4" of drop, and lowered the front torsion bars a corresponding amount. Now I'm about 5 turns below max on the torsion bars, and this is how it looks today:
IMG_20181111_115642315.jpg

The boot is definitely riding on that sharp edge that I filed down, but that really doesn't seem to be where it failed if you look at the first couple of pictures. The van does ride nicer in my opinion.

Anyone have any ideas about what happened here and how to avoid it? They still have a lifetime guarantee but removing and replacing them is such a giant pain I really really don't want to have to do it again. I don't think it was just a fluke part since both sides failed identically.

Here's a shot of the old and new one next to each other. It's weird to me how much that boot squashes down when they're installed, like it's doubling over on itself.
IMG_20181027_122322104.jpg

The uppers look way happier when they're installed:
IMG_20181027_154543927.jpg

Is something wrong with my van or parts, where the post is going too deep through the spindle? It tightens up nicely and the cotter pin goes through the castle nut, so I doubt it, but :shrug:
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby dramey » November 11th 2018, 8:43pm

Photo #1 looks like pickle fork damage.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby vtstang66 [OP] » November 11th 2018, 8:50pm

No pickle forks were used. Taken apart by whacking the spindles with a hammer.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Leeann_93 » November 11th 2018, 11:07pm

The after angle looks quite a bit better than the before. I'd imagine that the angle, coupled with severe potholes and bumps, is what did them in.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby MechBob » November 11th 2018, 11:15pm

Overgreasing,stretching the boot out,causing contact is a possibility.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Meterpig » November 11th 2018, 11:42pm

Did you go through all that trouble and then put the upper ball joint on top? Why not mount it below the arm and get a)more lift and b)better articulation?

I have 11 to 12 inches of ground clearance with 29.5 inch tires and my lower control arms are almost dead level. Just a thought.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Corsemoto » November 12th 2018, 12:21am

You can always try polyurethane boots, maybe a bit more durable.

http://energysuspension.com/products/Tie-Rod-Ball-Joint-Boots.html
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby vtstang66 [OP] » November 12th 2018, 4:18am

Meterpig wrote:Did you go through all that trouble and then put the upper ball joint on top? Why not mount it below the arm and get a)more lift and b)better articulation?

I have 11 to 12 inches of ground clearance with 29.5 inch tires and my lower control arms are almost dead level. Just a thought.


I read up on that a little, and decided to keep it stock. Moving the upper ball joints doesn't affect the lowers at all, right? Just makes the upper arms higher? From what I gathered it changes the range of adjustment for the caster/camber, and since I wasn't planning any radical geometry change (like reindexed keys), I figured I'd just leave the lid on that can of worms. If I decide to jack it up any more I will look into it again.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby vtstang66 [OP] » November 12th 2018, 4:21am

Corsemoto wrote:You can always try polyurethane boots, maybe a bit more durable.

http://energysuspension.com/products/Tie-Rod-Ball-Joint-Boots.html


I thought about that too, but I don't believe they're available. The boots on the uppers come right off, but the ones on the lowers are built into the ball joint. Searching on the site you linked, there's nothing listed (even for uppers).
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Meterpig » November 12th 2018, 4:48am

vtstang66 wrote:
Meterpig wrote:Did you go through all that trouble and then put the upper ball joint on top? Why not mount it below the arm and get a)more lift and b)better articulation?

I have 11 to 12 inches of ground clearance with 29.5 inch tires and my lower control arms are almost dead level. Just a thought.


I read up on that a little, and decided to keep it stock. Moving the upper ball joints doesn't affect the lowers at all, right? Just makes the upper arms higher? From what I gathered it changes the range of adjustment for the caster/camber, and since I wasn't planning any radical geometry change (like reindexed keys), I figured I'd just leave the lid on that can of worms. If I decide to jack it up any more I will look into it again.


I think you are over thinking it just a bit. I did it, realigned it with a level and got it pretty close. It does increase your lift and allows you to do less torsion turning. There isn't a can of worms other than the alignment. Also, It gets me less angle and therefore less pressure on the ball joints.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Meili » March 12th 2019, 3:15am

Moving the upper ball joint DOES NOT add more lift. The preloaded LCA is where your lift comes from. Ballpoint flip will get you more extension/droop if you raised the LCA via torsen bar to the point that the UCA is close to the bump stop.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Meterpig » March 15th 2019, 2:06pm

Well meili, have you actually done the flip?
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby MmusicmanMmusicman is online! » March 15th 2019, 2:53pm

Meili wrote:Moving the upper ball joint DOES NOT add more lift. The preloaded LCA is where your lift comes from. Ballpoint flip will get you more extension/droop if you raised the LCA via torsen bar to the point that the UCA is close to the bump stop.

This is EXACTLY correct. The upper arm simply follows the suspension, and does not lift.
The spring (or torsion bar) is attached and puts it pressure to the lower arm.
The reasoning for changing the geometry of the upper arm is to regain lost articulation.. to essentially re-position it back to the center of it travel after torsion bar lift.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby TurnNburn » March 15th 2019, 5:43pm

This also aids in getting the suspension closer to stock positions after a lift for a more accurate wheel/tire alignment. If you don't do this with reindexed torsion bar keys and crank them up pretty high, you will have excessive positive camber that cant be adjusted out. Flipping the ball joint gives you something like 1.5* of camber towards the negative which will bring everything back into spec.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby sixsix » March 15th 2019, 8:21pm

Mmusicman wrote:
Meili wrote:Moving the upper ball joint DOES NOT add more lift. The preloaded LCA is where your lift comes from. Ballpoint flip will get you more extension/droop if you raised the LCA via torsen bar to the point that the UCA is close to the bump stop.

This is EXACTLY correct. The upper arm simply follows the suspension, and does not lift.
The spring (or torsion bar) is attached and puts it pressure to the lower arm.
The reasoning for changing the geometry of the upper arm is to regain lost articulation.. to essentially re-position it back to the center of it travel after torsion bar lift.

TurnNburn wrote:This also aids in getting the suspension closer to stock positions after a lift for a more accurate wheel/tire alignment. If you don't do this with reindexed torsion bar keys and crank them up pretty high, you will have excessive positive camber that cant be adjusted out. Flipping the ball joint gives you something like 1.5* of camber towards the negative which will bring everything back into spec.


So... can we get a summary update ? , +/- , upgrade, dngrade, for those of us not keeping notes.

Keeping Torsion bars load down / Better Balljoint care / Better Balljoint longevity /
Keeping certain components in certain attitudes / Better performance of AWD/4WD reqs. ("it won't do wh...") /
Finding a "Good Balance" between ultimate performance & components not "made for it" / Failure /
Parts going out at the most inopportune time / Drive w/ spares or are we "Not that into It":

- torsion bars
- balljoint boots
- balljoint loc.
- caster / camber
- realign
- "home" realign
- quickie string / level methods

- AWD, 4WD, but not RWD ( at all? )
- even considering obvious diffs - tors, cv, etc.


Maybe someone can caution on a few things ...
- possibly save a one or more from headaches & cracked knuckles.
- not to mention "mindbend"



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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby TurnNburn » March 15th 2019, 10:34pm

I have around 30k miles on my van with moog problem solver ball joints (about 6k of those with a v8 in it) and many of those miles were with reindexed torsion bar keys that were at one point cranked up waaay further then stock keys could get you.

Anyway, I beat the crap out of my van on road and off and have yet to damage any of my moog components (except for idler arms before I thought to drop them).
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Corsemoto » March 15th 2019, 11:51pm

Meterpig wrote:
vtstang66 wrote:
Meterpig wrote:Did you go through all that trouble and then put the upper ball joint on top? Why not mount it below the arm and get a)more lift and b)better articulation?

I have 11 to 12 inches of ground clearance with 29.5 inch tires and my lower control arms are almost dead level. Just a thought.


I read up on that a little, and decided to keep it stock. Moving the upper ball joints doesn't affect the lowers at all, right? Just makes the upper arms higher? From what I gathered it changes the range of adjustment for the caster/camber, and since I wasn't planning any radical geometry change (like reindexed keys), I figured I'd just leave the lid on that can of worms. If I decide to jack it up any more I will look into it again.


I think you are over thinking it just a bit. I did it, realigned it with a level and got it pretty close. It does increase your lift and allows you to do less torsion turning. There isn't a can of worms other than the alignment. Also, It gets me less angle and therefore less pressure on the ball joints.


Nope.

Meterpig wrote:Well meili, have you actually done the flip?


:text-imwithstupid:

I hope you are thinking of increased downward travel (slightly) with upper ball joint relocation and not increased lift, as has been covered.
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Re: Moog Problem Solver lower ball joints failed @ 12k miles

Postby Meili » March 17th 2019, 7:56pm

Late to the game but yes did the same thing on my S10s, which is the "same" suspension. I took a aluminum ballpoint spacer had it cut into 1/4" shims. I then had them milled to the correct angle so the ball joints were at "neutral" at rest. All the rest posted is correct, travel regained but no more lift. On vaca in California with the Irihs side of the family so we should be drinking soon. Happy Saint Patrick's Day!
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