Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 6th 2010, 12:41am

The van is a 1993 AWD 4.3L Astro with quite a problem; the front differential is hitting the oil pan. I've looked at this thread:

Diff hitting Oil Pan

That thread doesn't seem to fit the problem I'm having. My van's a virtually deep rust-free van, with only surface rust on the frame. There seems to be no problems with the frame. I'm at a loss where to look. I suspect there may be a problem with the bushings. I'm attaching pictures from under the van.

So, two (or more) heads are better than one. Does anyone see anything that jumps out at them, or have had this problem before? Any suggestions before I start to tear the rig apart?
Attachments
Bolt hit small.jpg
Bolt hitting the oil pan
Bolt hit small.jpg (118.66 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
Oil Line 2 Small.jpg
Bushing, Passenger's side.
Oil Line 2 Small.jpg (114.72 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
Oil Line 3 small.jpg
Bushing, Driver's side.
Oil Line 3 small.jpg (117.94 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
oil Line 4 small.jpg
Driver's side mounts
oil Line 4 small.jpg (120.99 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
Oil Line 5 small.jpg
Driver's side mounts - close-up
Oil Line 5 small.jpg (147.59 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby mot_art » April 6th 2010, 2:33am

hi,
I am guessing since the engine and trasmission are NOT bolted to the differential, it might be that the engine is low, I'd check the engine mounts ASAP just to be sure, see also if the engine is leveled up, u can do that by standing is front of your van with the hood open and try to find out is it is leaning to one side or the other, if it is the case I bet it is leaning to the differential side.. other than that I cant see anything that will cause this problem.. good luck and let me know.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 6th 2010, 4:10am

Thanks, that was my first thought also... I put a hydraulic jack under the oil pan (with wood in between the pan and the jack) and started to lift the engine. I figured this would test for a collapsed motor mount. The as the engine started to lift... so did the rest of the vehicle. The mounts were intact. The engine did not lift away from the axle. The engine is level in the engine bay, and the frame measurements from the bottom of the frame to the floor is the same driver's and passenger's sides. The frame is level.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby Astroplane » April 6th 2010, 8:47am

Since the engine mounts look good, Is it possible the diff has moved sideways into the pan?
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 6th 2010, 6:20pm

Since the engine mounts look good, Is it possible the diff has moved sideways into the pan?
Hummm... interesting. I don't think the diff has moved, but I'll check it out. I hadn't considered that... thanks!
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 8th 2010, 12:53am

Since the engine mounts look good, Is it possible the diff has moved sideways into the pan?
I went to the junkyard today and looked at a couple of AWD Astros to see if anything would jump out at me.

I took a measurements from the left and right frame rails to the middle of the bell-housing, just in front of the axle. I then compared the measurements to my Astro. In both cases the measurements were correct.

I should have taken more measurement, such as:
  • Compression of the transfer case to cross-member mount
  • Measurement of the Passenger Axle tube to frame mount
  • Transfer case alignment between frame rails.
This is a learning curve on my part. I think I'm safe in saying... there will be more.

The only thing that jumped out at me when I got home was the passenger's side left axle mount's horizontal alignment. That seems to also center the differential. The junkyard diffs were about 3/16" distance from the bolt to the engine oil pan, with distance between the axle tube and the oil pan. Here's a picture of that:

Bolt2 small.jpg
Bolt2 small.jpg (111.18 KiB) Viewed 1276 times


Then looking at the passenger side axle tube mount on my Astro I found it was not centered on the frame, and was off to the passenger side:

axle tube small.jpg
axle tube small.jpg (158.24 KiB) Viewed 1276 times


I wish, when I was at the junkyard I'd snapped a pic of this alignment.

I put a jack on the transfer case and lifted it up a bit to see if compression of the cross-member mount were a problem... no difference at the engine.

Mo_art may have hit the nail on the head. I took a closer look at the motor mounts and look what I found on the driver's side:

engine mount small.jpg
engine mount small.jpg (118.28 KiB) Viewed 1272 times


Notice how the top left of the mount is pulling up?
I think I may have found a small problem that could let the engine drop enough to cause my problem with the oil pan. I'll know more later when I get the bolts and reattach the mount properly.... I don't think it's supposed to look like that.

If that cures the problem... I'll be very, very happy!
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby Astroplane » April 8th 2010, 4:52am

I don't see what you are seeing with the mount. Are you talking about the mount cage ear? One bolt/nut on top, two on bottom?
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby astro355 » April 8th 2010, 7:44am

Astroplane wrote:I don't see what you are seeing with the mount. Are you talking about the mount cage ear? One bolt/nut on top, two on bottom?


Image

If you look at the bolt in the cage ear on the top, you will see that the nut is not centered in the cage ear. How does the driver side one look? Is it also offset?

LEVE wrote:Thanks, that was my first thought also... I put a hydraulic jack under the oil pan (with wood in between the pan and the jack) and started to lift the engine. I figured this would test for a collapsed motor mount. The as the engine started to lift... so did the rest of the vehicle. The mounts were intact. The engine did not lift away from the axle. The engine is level in the engine bay, and the frame measurements from the bottom of the frame to the floor is the same driver's and passenger's sides. The frame is level.


You should never do that, with a block of wood or not. That is a real easy way to cause an oil leak around the oil pan.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 8th 2010, 9:57am

Hey Guys, thanks for all the input, it is appreciated.

I don't see what you are seeing with the mount. Are you talking about the mount cage ear? One bolt/nut on top, two on bottom?


Image

For further clarification, looking at the top of the Driver's side engine to frame motor mount you can see it's missing a bolt and is pulling up. Now that I look closer at the bottom of the mount I can see that the bottom of the mount is starting to deform. I hadn't noticed that when I first posted the picture. I believe this is what is letting the engine drop enough for the oil pan to hit the differential bolt.

LEVE wrote:Thanks, that was my first thought also... I put a hydraulic jack under the oil pan (with wood in between the pan and the jack) and started to lift the engine. I figured this would test for a collapsed motor mount. The as the engine started to lift... so did the rest of the vehicle. The mounts were intact. The engine did not lift away from the axle. The engine is level in the engine bay, and the frame measurements from the bottom of the frame to the floor is the same driver's and passenger's sides. The frame is level.
You should never do that, with a block of wood or not. That is a real easy way to cause an oil leak around the oil pan.
In the 50 years that I've been working in/around/on engines I've yet to cause an oil leak via this method. Though the oil pan to engine bolt torque is only 13 to about 16 pounds, the pan is formed sheet metal. I've always found the pan an adequate place to lift the engine enough to test the motor mounts for tearing. Bear in mind that as I found the engine would not budge... I did not raise the engine any further and released pressure. I did not want to crush/deform the oil pan.

Is this good practice?

Likely not.... as every book/manual I've ever read says not to. But then, sometimes I'm too lazy to get out the 2ton hoist and hook it up. :banghead: Someday It'll likely bite me in the but, but this wasn't the day.

Today I'll be heading down to NAPA to get two new motor mounts and see if it makes a difference.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby Astroplane » April 9th 2010, 8:46am

LEVE wrote:For further clarification, looking at the top of the Driver's side engine to frame motor mount you can see it's missing a bolt and is pulling up.

New motor mounts may help. That is not a bolt hole.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 9th 2010, 11:31am

That is not a bolt hole.
Thanks Astroplane for the information. Dang, I thought I was on to something with the bolt hole... I've got a lot to learn on this van. Anyway, I'll know soon enough; as soon as NAPA can get me the mounts.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby astro355 » April 9th 2010, 4:40pm

Maybe its just me but by this picture:

Image

it looks like the front diff is mounted to far to the passenger side. I would assume that the bolts in that cage ear should be centered.

Have you checked the tire to fender clearance on both sides of the van?
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 9th 2010, 8:43pm

it looks like the front diff is mounted to far to the passenger side. I would assume that the bolts in that cage ear should be centered.

Have you checked the tire to fender clearance on both sides of the van?
That's what I thought too, it should be centered. I am, at this point, too stupid to know the difference on the fender clearance.

I've just returned from NAPA with the new motor mounts... so if those doesn't increase the distance between the axle and oil pan... I'll be looking at a whole lot more stuff.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby offroad safari » April 10th 2010, 4:51am

sorry for the delayed response. i have been traveling alot lately. i am the one that originally had this problem and while it looks like my diff mounts caused the diff to hit the oil pan in my post. the broken diff mounts were not the problem. what i didn't say was that 3 years earlier, i had noticed the diff / oil pan contact. I now believe it to be the origin of the diff mount problems i had, basically the engine was slamming into the front diff because both motor mounts were bad, even though they looked ok. my engine, trans and transfer case were totally out of place. It took about 5 hours, alot of luck, a floor jack, and huge pry bars to get the new mounts ( including the trans mount) in place and the drivetrain back to the correct location. after changing the mounts the engine sat about an 1.5" higher in the van. I would put money on the motor mounts being your problem.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby offroad safari » April 10th 2010, 4:59am

i also doubt the front diff is out of place, being that the driver's side has 2 mounts directly to the subframe and the passenger's side has the axle tube bracket that bolts directly to the subframe in two places, even if all the bushings were bad(which mine were way worse), there is no way the diff would hit the oil pan. as for the axletube to brake holes being off, they aren't, mine is the sale way.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby LEVE [OP] » April 10th 2010, 5:00am

I would put money on the motor mounts being your problem.
Wow, thanks for the response. It gives me new hope. If I can get that fixed... then it's on to fixing the door locks and the cruise control. Once those systems are fixed... the Astro's good to go. I can hardly wait.

The 700 miles I put on it driving it home was a good experience. It will be the go-to van in the winter when the wife needs it for the snow and ice. With the AWD, ABS and studded tires... she'll be good to go and be safe on her 90mile commute. I'm also looking forward to Thanksgiving and Christmas when I have to travel to see family over on the Coast. The Cascade mountain passes can be pretty nasty in the winter and this rig should be just the ticket we need to safely see family.
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Re: Oil Pan hitting Front Differential

Postby offroad safari » April 10th 2010, 5:05am

im going to pm you my phone number incase you have anymore questions, i normally wouldnt do this, but i am never home anymore to get on the site and i want to make sure you get this fixed. ... you will love your van in the snow, especially if it has a posi rear, if not i would advise finding one at a u-pull it yard
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