Fuel pump?

Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 18th 2011, 1:39am

99 awd passenger van.

Starts fine cold or hot, no smoke. Idles fine, minor random very occasional misfire.

On gentle accel from a cold start, it will run ok up to 3000ish, then start to misfire, and if you push it, she will fire progressively worse until total engine quit. If you release the happy pedal, it will stumble and pick back up, but never regain full power, and will try to die every time you hit the gas.

Perhaps additional data. when you switch the key to on, something that sounds like fuel pump (louder with the gas cap off) runs like "eeeeeeeeeeeennnnnn", sounds like pump is trying to build pressure, taking a couple of seconds, then hitting deadhead pressure, then cutting off (is this oil pressure controlled or ecu controlled?). This also happens when you cut if off, same-oh as turn on sounds, whether or not the engine has run.

End stink tells me it's the fuel pump, but I've been wrong once or twice...
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby chevymaher » September 18th 2011, 2:13am

Check and see if your fuel filter clogged,that would strain the pump.And cause it to run out of gas at RPM.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 18th 2011, 3:00am

Filter is new. Sorry forgot to op that. No guarantee it's not clogged, though - rusty tanks a problem with these. It lived in PA and OH for while. Tank metal looks ok outside, but there's some rust on a/c lines and fuel lines between tank and filter.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Tegarst » September 18th 2011, 10:20pm

How many miles? If you often run the fuel below 1/4 tank it is common for the pump to fail between 100-125k miles. best way to know if it is indeed failing is to take a pressure reading. From my experience, I changed the one on my 2000 around 115k miles when the whine became very noticeable and was taking 4 seconds to stop after turning key on. I preferred to change the pump on my terms and did not want to get stranded on the side of the road in the snow or rain.

I am now at 225k and rarely go below 1/4 tank.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Jasen » September 18th 2011, 10:46pm

My fuel pump has whined pretty good sense I bought it 8 years ago, haven't had any trouble with it as of yet.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 20th 2011, 1:15am

Got the fuel filter loose today, and while I didn't flow test it, I have some pressure there, but no residual pressure when I cracked it. Do these things have a pump check valve and hold regulator pressure when turned off?

I dug the doghouse out and got to the fuel rail schrader valve, but didn't have a gauge to really test it. The "crazy mofo pressed the high pressure schrader valve with the engine running test" only gave me a dribble burble of fuel. Not the HP spray I'd expect off something that specs a 70-100psi fuel pump.

I've got to go to school on these things. Time to get the Helms textbook. In the interim, can somebody give me the expected fuel pressure at the schrader? The min gph or lb/hr fuel delivery on the pump? I can check both if I get a cheapo FPG and a graduated catch can for the fuel return line.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Phantom » September 20th 2011, 1:57am

62 psi
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby redfury » September 20th 2011, 6:15am

If you cycle the key 3 times, with a 3 second pause between key cycles, that shraeder valve should make a mess out of the immediate area with fuel pressure. If it is not, then you have either a faulty fuel pump/restriction or a bad pressure regulator.

Listen with the doghouse off to see if you can hear fuel spraying inside the intake plenum. The "nut kit" hoses may have a split in them causing fuel to spray out...you're losing or not making fuel pressure somewhere.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 21st 2011, 2:53am

I've about decided that the motor run sound I hear at key on and off is an abs pump pressurizing the system. I can hear a softer hum that I think is the fuel pump. I tried the key on off on off on off trick but I let some time elapse before I doodled the schrader stem.

I'm a little lackaknow on the csfi system. I understand I have poppet injectors at the port, and the rest of the goodies are in the center? Little lines to the injectors? Sort of like the old Mercedes CIS in looks? I assume then that the nut kit hoses are the lines from fuel distributor to injectors? Are the injectors then electrical instead of poppets? I've got a Helms on the way, but I need to get her runnin' well enough to get me out of Mama's Subie Boxer6.

Just bought an Actron 9580 scanner, and I'll hit it in the a.m. and see if I've got codes.

One more note. The exhaust at idle is slightly acrid in odor, not quite to the eye burning stage, so I'm pretty sure it's lean even at idle. The Actron will read the ohtwo's in real time, so I can check it out tomorrow.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby redfury » September 21st 2011, 3:14am

The nut kit is the supply and return lines that go from the metal fuel lines to the injector spider. The individual poppets come off that spider with plastic supply lines, they are mechanical poppets...open when pressurized.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as an ABS pump building pressure, it's a solenoid assembly that actuates solenoids to release brake pressure on the wheels that are locked up when the others are still spinning. I'm not an ABS guru by any stretch though, so if I'm mistaken, I'll stand corrected...

I think I'd want to run that fuel pressure test just to be sure, but let us know what you find out with the scanner.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 22nd 2011, 4:52pm

Fuel pressure test:

KOEO, fuel pressure goes to 62, then drops to 54 when pump goes off after initial run. Key off, pump runs again and pressure goes to 62, then drops to 54. Idling, pressure holds at 54.

Scanner test, no connect detected at dlc. I have 12v at pin 16, 4 and 5 show good continuity to ground. 10 shows 5v pretty steady, 2 shows a fluctuating .1 to .3v signal to ground, and 2-10 shows 5.1-5.3v fluctuating, like 2 voltage added to 5 voltage. I'm using an actron 9585 and I can't read the codes, or see 12v power to run the scanner (except on it's own batteries) or record data frames.

I have not done a drive test under load with the FPG connected yet, time constraints bit me...

A further note. I found a broken vac line coming off the manifold, dside, 2/3 to the rear, coming off a star wars gun tower thingy, probably the pcv valve thing in black plastic. Vac port is large, like 3/16ish. I found a 1/8 hard line piece on a vac line tangle on the pside, and the hose on the gun tower thingy had a piece on the 1/8hardline inside the loose end. I assume (I know what assuming does, thanks) that the vac should also go to the fpr so it sets fuel pressure to a fixed amount above mani pressure as opposed to atmo pressure, and I know it should go to hvac system, which is in blow in defrost mode only.

Where does the map see pressure from? The same vac line system or a dedicated port?

I'm about down to a vac problem, a fuel delivery problem at high use rates, or Murphy...
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby redfury » September 22nd 2011, 5:30pm

Fuel pressure regulator gets vacuum from exposure to intake pressure. Meaning it exists in a manifold vacuum. The MAP. Is it's own entity on the passenger side of the engine. Replace or repair the bad vac lines first. Your fuel pressure readings are about the same as mine. I took video of it, I'll try to post that tonight.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Phantom » September 22nd 2011, 5:53pm

x2 on replacing vacuum line , loss of vacuum can cause various problems

54 psi can run the van , but I think it should be a steady around 59+ for a good pump
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 26th 2011, 4:19am

TNX for the info. I'll get the vac lines hooked up as well as I can figger out tomorrow, then do a road test with the FPG attached and look for a pressure drop. I've got a new pump and harness coming, but this truck needs to go to work, so I'm going for running adequate for right now as opposed to running perfect. Dropping the tank can wait unless changing the fuel filter again doesn't do the trick.

Does anyone have a link to a 99 vac diagram? I've got one that's close, but I want to check that I've got all the sensors hooked up to vac that are hungry for it.

I have to chase down why I don't have a hookup with two different scan tools to the aldl. Have to chase the wire back the black boxes underhood. Think I'm good on all but the ecu signal wire - both grounds and power check good.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Phantom » September 27th 2011, 3:17am

Gen2 vacuum lines
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby redfury » September 27th 2011, 1:21pm

redfury wrote:Fuel pressure regulator gets vacuum from exposure to intake pressure. Meaning it exists in a manifold vacuum. The MAP. Is it's own entity on the passenger side of the engine. Replace or repair the bad vac lines first. Your fuel pressure readings are about the same as mine. I took video of it, I'll try to post that tonight.


eh, lost the monitor on my computer, so it'll be a bit before I get access to those files..gotta dig out another monitor from "the hole".
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 28th 2011, 2:51am

Vac is fixed, FP is all good now. New acdelco iridium plugs, new belden 7mm wires, new cap and rotor. The van runs a tad better, but the original complaint is still there, struggles to wind up past 2000, 3000 is like a vertical wall. All this is when under load. You can run it up to the rev limiter in neutral.

Had a maf question, but swapped in a known good and no change, still shows .25lb/min at koeo, both show the same at idle and at 3000rpms unloaded. Put the old one back in.

I need a timing curve. I have an actron 9585 and still schoolin' on it. I show 18-20.5* advance at idle, and full in advance of 39.5* is there by 2900. Seems to high at idle and all in too early to me. If I'm runnin' way to much advance, like Cretin's Garage got aholt of hit and cranked the dizzy or bent the CPS or sump'n, the cylinder pressure would max way too early, fighting the piston on the way up. One symptom is leaning me toward timing. I get a LOT of ping/clatter/misfire if I WOT it and hold it and let it struggle up to an upshift point. One last random thought. According to my parts guy, there are two detonation sensors on the L35. I've not seen the schematic or the det action strategy for this motor, but the ones I'm used to retard the timing until they don't hear ping, then add back until they do, et cetera ad nauseum. I have what sound like a ticking lifter. I've had mechanical transients like that trigger det sensors, with effects similar to what I've got. Rates a Hmmmm, at least?

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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby chevymaher » September 28th 2011, 3:02am

fasteddy wrote:Vac is fixed, FP is all good now. New acdelco iridium plugs, new belden 7mm wires, new cap and rotor. The van runs a tad better, but the original complaint is still there, struggles to wind up past 2000, 3000 is like a vertical wall. All this is when under load. You can run it up to the rev limiter in neutral.

Had a maf question, but swapped in a known good and no change, still shows .25lb/min at koeo, both show the same at idle and at 3000rpms unloaded. Put the old one back in.

I need a timing curve. I have an actron 9585 and still schoolin' on it. I show 18-20.5* advance at idle, and full in advance of 39.5* is there by 2900. Seems to high at idle and all in too early to me. If I'm runnin' way to much advance, like Cretin's Garage got aholt of hit and cranked the dizzy or bent the CPS or sump'n, the cylinder pressure would max way too early, fighting the piston on the way up. One symptom is leaning me toward timing. I get a LOT of ping/clatter/misfire if I WOT it and hold it and let it struggle up to an upshift point. One last random thought. According to my parts guy, there are two detonation sensors on the L35. I've not seen the schematic or the det action strategy for this motor, but the ones I'm used to retard the timing until they don't hear ping, then add back until they do, et cetera ad nauseum. I have what sound like a ticking lifter. I've had mechanical transients like that trigger det sensors, with effects similar to what I've got. Rates a Hmmmm, at least?eddy

You got way to much advance going on there.35 or so total is racing setting for max power,you beyond that into severe detonation territory.10-12 is what I shoot for at idle with full advance by 2600.And I dont know what factory settings are but they way-way lower than that.
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby Phantom » September 28th 2011, 3:10am

One sensor is back by the distributor and the other i think is between cylinders 3 & 5 , i'd have to heck to be sure on that , I think it is the drivers side for the second one ,,yea your timing does seem a bit too much
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Re: Fuel pump?

Postby fasteddy [OP] » September 28th 2011, 5:04am

I saw what I thought was a det sensor on the dside head between the plugs. The Delphi book shows 2 as well.

Now, how do you set the timing? One source says rough set the dizzy to tdc by the old compression @ #1 method, no mention of a tdc mark, then fine set by loosening the dizzy bolt and twisting the dizzy, reading the timing off the engine scanner. By that method, you set the base timing to 0 +/-2*. Is there a set the timing connector to remove pcm control of advance? I know I'm not really setting the timing, just the camshaft phasing sensor, but if this doesn't affect base timing, how do you set it?

I'm pretty sure Cretin's Garage has been at work here. Several signs. The oil dipstick is way down deep in the pside hole under the cowl instead of coming out near the atf dipstick. The tcase to engine brace bolt on the engine end was not tightened down all the way. A/c line coming over dside of motor has the bellhousing line bracket floating loose. Rule 1, boys, buy a virgin truck, unmolested by the lazy and uninformed. I hate PO's...
Original Poster [OP]
fasteddy
Fueling (1/4 tank)
Fueling (1/4 tank)
Years of Membership: fasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full yearsfasteddy has been a member for 11 full years
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