Bad computer, Memcal questions

Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby Coaster [OP] » April 18th 2015, 5:23pm

i've been struggling with the 95 astro for some time. several years ago it started stalling a the same spot everyday on the way to work and it never idled right. i went through the engine and replaced everything that was in poor shape as it was 20 years old and some was really bad. what wasnt replaced was tested and is ok. eventually i replaced the computer with one from a 95 safari sometime last fall before it got too cold to do repairs around here. it never stalled again, the idle shot up to 650 instead of 550, the shift points lowered a lot (i could be in third by 18mph instead of 28), the TC lockup kicked in at 41mph instead of 48mph, took 2 seconds of cranking to start vs instant start with original computer, some oddness off idle in terms of lack of power. there is likely more differences that i cant remember right now except i was always concerned that it never seemed to downshift unless i had the pedal buried. i dont like that. but this was all worth it because it NEVER STALLED.

i ran it that way all winter and it didnt give me any trouble except for a power steering hose.

some folks call the memcal a PROM and thats not wrong.

last week i pulled an empty trailer home 255 miles and the van struggled up gentle hills and generally shifted at too low an rpm to pull a trailer. i've pulled trailers with this van with the old computer and it didnt struggle up hills (but of course stalled at idle) so thursday i decided to see what would happen if i swapped back to the original computer. the computers are the same, however the Memcals are NOT the same. the engine started up immediately, idled well after it hit closed loop (never idles well hot with a blank BLM table). drove home with good idle, higher shift points and tc lockup. patted myself on the back until i parked it and it stalled requiring me to two foot the brake pedal to keep from slamming into the car ahead of me. :banghead:

further testing revealed exact same stalling pattern as before, same spot on the way to work (approx 20 minutes driving). further testing confirmed the first twenty minutes are great, then turns to garbage. wont run worth a damn.

friday i woke up with the brilliant idea to put the safari ecu back in, but swap the astro memcal into it first. why this never dawned on me before is a mystery. EUREKA! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

runs great! when i pulled the astro computer out it was HOT compared to when i pulled the safari computer out (warm). obviously the astro ecu is bad.

what i dont understand is what the hell did the safari memcal come out of? the only thing i can find (google it and you wont get anything either!) is this:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cer ... _4d3_1.pdf
page three

here is the original ECU and Memcal
16197427 ecu
16212125 Memcal

this combo searches well in google and came in tons of 95 GM, not just vans.

P82A0442.JPG


here is the one i got out of the 95 safari
16197427 ecu
16219035 Memcal


google search turns up near NOTHING on this memcal. any ideas? california tune? different cam? it ran substandard on my engine

where else can i look for this info? i've run out of ideas.

TLDR- swapped ecu with different PROMs, same 4.3v6 similar vans. cant find info on new to me PROM
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby AstroWill » April 23rd 2015, 4:02am

The only reference I could find said 4.3 cpi, maybe it's bad?

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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby WoodButcher » April 24th 2015, 12:06pm

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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby chevymaher » April 24th 2015, 12:41pm

A tidbit I stumbled across reading that may explain some of the differences your finding in the ECU's. This discussion was about the finite life span of the "Better and Easier" compoments. When compared to home computer systems.

"Cars are different. They are giant data acquisition systems.
Sensors for everything, where as computers don't have sensors
(or at least very few, many have temp sensors).

Electrolytic capacitors are the primary thing that goes in most
systems Car or computer (they dry out). These components are
the reason that many of the silver boxes in computers fail;
the caps go bad enough that the voltage fed to the electronics
varies too much, called "ripple", and the system won't operate
anymore. In cars, especially older vehicles, resistors change
value over time and the computer then interprets the sensor
values incorrectly, even with a new sensor. This is why some
vehicles indicate the sensor is "bad" even when a new one is
installed. For most the only fix is to change the control box."
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby WoodButcher » April 25th 2015, 12:24am

Make a lot of sense CM. I never thought about bad caps and or any of the other goodies.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby Coaster [OP] » April 25th 2015, 3:04am

i can see the tables are all different in tunerpro, its a different tune. makes me want to get tunercat so i can tweak up my idle and get more timing on the highway
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby WoodButcher » April 25th 2015, 4:05am

I wish I had time to sit down and learn to use it but I have more pressing items on my plate. There is a member here with a '95 that had some success with tunerpro but I haven't spoken with him in a while.
Are you familiar with obd1 tuning?
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby Coaster [OP] » April 25th 2015, 4:13am

no, but i have been watching the readouts in tunerpro for over a year and seeing how the various systems react to changes. i finally understand how the timing at idle works (and why when i get a misfire it goes to hell). i probably dont need to tune it, but it would be fun. took me about a year of tinkering to get my 318 truck tuned up (carb/cam) but the vortec has a pretty good tune.

i just hate the low low idle.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby chevymaher » April 25th 2015, 1:15pm

Coaster wrote:i can see the tables are all different in tunerpro, its a different tune. makes me want to get tunercat so i can tweak up my idle and get more timing on the highway

Your computer is the same as mine it cant be tuned. You need to put in a chip socket, burn chips. Trial and error.

Now the timing is another story. It does not have a timing curve. And there is nothing you can do to get one. It is in the module in the distributor. It is straight timing, or I forget exactly but, it is like 18 degrees retard. Nothing in between. Turning the distributor and adjusting it is your only option. Which is what makes it so finicky. A little to far and it practically shuts the engine down.
Only other option is a boat module in the distributor which is straight timing no retard at all.

Idle can be manually tweaked. I made a Manual adjustment. It takes days to get adjusted tho. Set the idle up and the IAC sets it back down. Little more and it goes down in a few days. Do it again and the computer looses consciousness and it idles way to high. Back and forth untill the computer just gives up. 650 you can get but any higher and the computer will fight it to the death.
That is why I am so happy with the mercruiser. That thing would run backwards. 550 idle and it is pulling like a big block it don't run rough or lack power in the basement. Engine and the computer are on the same page.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby WoodButcher » April 25th 2015, 1:50pm

Coaster wrote:i just hate the low low idle.


This is my problem with my 350. I set the timing so I get the snap in my throttle and at idle it stalls at lights when in gear, foot on brake. I don't mind the low idle if it wouldn't stall.

chevymaher wrote:
Coaster wrote:i can see the tables are all different in tunerpro, its a different tune. makes me want to get tunercat so i can tweak up my idle and get more timing on the highway

Your computer is the same as mine it cant be tuned. You need to put in a chip socket, burn chips. Trial and error.

Now the timing is another story. It does not have a timing curve. And there is nothing you can do to get one. It is in the module in the distributor. It is straight timing, or I forget exactly but, it is like 18 degrees retard. Nothing in between. Turning the distributor and adjusting it is your only option. Which is what makes it so finicky. A little to far and it practically shuts the engine down.
Only other option is a boat module in the distributor which is straight timing no retard at all.

Idle can be manually tweaked. I made a Manual adjustment. It takes days to get adjusted tho. Set the idle up and the IAC sets it back down. Little more and it goes down in a few days. Do it again and the computer looses consciousness and it idles way to high. Back and forth untill the computer just gives up. 650 you can get but any higher and the computer will fight it to the death.
That is why I am so happy with the mercruiser. That thing would run backwards. 550 idle and it is pulling like a big block it don't run rough or lack power in the basement. Engine and the computer are on the same page.


What do I need to do to get this manual adjustment? Do you have any links or pictures Randy?
If a chip is the only way I'll have to learn. While I did contact a guy over at gearheads that will burn chips the only real solution is to find someone local that can do hands on. Like you said it is trial and error so while sending chips through via snail mail is possible it just isn't practical.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby chevymaher » April 25th 2015, 2:17pm

woodbutcher is yours a TBI? If so it isnt to hard.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby Lumpy » April 25th 2015, 4:18pm

chevymaher wrote:
...Electrolytic capacitors are the primary thing that goes in most
systems Car or computer (they dry out). These components are
the reason that many of the silver boxes in computers fail;
the caps go bad enough that the voltage fed to the electronics
varies too much, called "ripple", and the system won't operate
anymore. In cars, especially older vehicles, resistors change
value over time and the computer then interprets the sensor
values incorrectly, even with a new sensor. This is why some
vehicles indicate the sensor is "bad" even when a new one is
installed. For most the only fix is to change the control box."


Our new Dodge has a computer to monitor the main ECM, BCM and SCM (Systems Control Module) computer. And it has BlueTooth/WiFi/Satellite/Cellphone to send the data to Dodge or to our home computer, which can then be accessed from and sent to our SmartPhone, which is being monitored by Google, which is being monitored by Costco, Kroger, Amazon and the NSA.

My life is so much better and easier, I might as well just take a nap. Amazon knows the temperature of my Automatic Transmission Fluid.


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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby Coaster [OP] » April 25th 2015, 6:35pm

This is my problem with my 350. I set the timing so I get the snap in my throttle and at idle it stalls at lights when in gear, foot on brake. I don't mind the low idle if it wouldn't stall


thats funny, thats exactly my current battle. if i set the base timing with enough power to pull my trailer on the highway i get severe miss at idle with engine warm - and it will stall warm everytime at idle.

the computer can be adjusted; with the different memcals that contain different instructions. you can have the same computer with a v8 memcal or a v6 memcal etc etc, and my two memcals have different instructions for the two 16197427 ecu's they came out of.

i can watch the output of the ecu in tunerpro and i can see it change the timing as i idle and drive. at idle i usually have 14-22 advance and at 75mph its near 40. step on the pedal and the timing behaves like old skule vacuum advance, drops timing with pedal movement. it uses the timing to achieve smooth idle (or attempt to, get a miss and game over). the way i have come to understand it is on the 92-95 engines the ecu uses the ICM for engine speed input, and when it sees the time between fires increase/decrease it adjusts the timing to compensate. what mine does right now is if i have the timing setup the way it needs to run, it misses at idle and then timing shoots WAY up to 28 due to the missfire (trying to speed the engine up) which then causes other cyls to misfire. game over, total idle instability and a stall.

it may be the autolite spark plugs. maybe they just suck.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby chevymaher » April 25th 2015, 9:22pm

I use autolite spark plugs. Never misses. I got 100 thousand out of my last set. This set in my new engine has 60 thousand from the second engine on them.
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Re: Bad computer, Memcal questions

Postby WoodButcher » April 26th 2015, 1:51pm

Yep, TBI. I'll pull it and drill out the idle set screw you mentioned eventually. I'll get a TB spacer and put that in at the same time. I made the fuel pressure regulator adjustable and set to run at 12.5 lbs. Got a nice fan spray from both injectors. Salad bowl mod to the air cleaner but that damn timing I think is the issue.
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