94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Phantom » September 27th 2010, 5:32pm

I'm really interested in what is causing this problem, I'll try to think of something ,but at the moment it really guesses , I don't know your budget but there is a good scan tool for 100 bucks that plugs into a pc and for OBD1 there is free software for it , does data streams , more than a code reader , which is near the price that a dealer would charge for performing the same task , I have seen a camshaft sensor cause it, but before replacing yours it should be tested first cause it might be just fine.
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 27th 2010, 5:38pm

Thanks Phantom,

Maybe I should find that cable and download the free software. I am off to the dealer for a diagnostic of this. Their charge is $53 and that charge is for any diagnostics they need to do. (the bad economy has made everyone drop their prices He He)

Keith
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Leeann_93 » September 27th 2010, 9:33pm

It's starting to sound more electrical than anything else - to me, at least. A better way to charge your battery, by the way, is to use an external charger - it's more efficient than the alternator.
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 1:59am

Thanks for the thought LeeAnn, I will remember that. (note to self, use the charger, not the alternator) ;)

Wow, Just got back from the Dealership. $53 to do a diagnosis, the tech has earned his pay today. Over 6 hours sitting waiting... the Service Writer talked to me after 2 hours only to say they were letting the engine cool down. I did tell the Service Writer the problem only happens when it is hot. He then said he would tell the tech the information, so another 2 hours of waiting, only for the SW to say the Shop Foreman would bring the van out and let me show him the problem. another hour wait, by this time, the owner of the Dealership shows up (after he notices I have been most of the day) and asks if he can do anything to help...

Let me back up a bit. I arrived at the shop at 10:50 am, about 11:50, being time for lunch, I ordered a sandwich from the in-store burger joint. Just as I was about to park my electric chair by a table, the chair got a mind of it's own. I turned on, went into full reverse and backed into a very heavy counter, 8 feet behind me and pushed it back about 8 inches. It's a good thing no one was behind, or they would have been injured for sure. Needless to say the sound of the chair hitting the counter reverberated throughout the area. This is what alerted the owner to my prescience. He come down from the offices on the upper floor, with windows overlooking the area where most of the people wait for their automobiles and asked if I was OK. He came back another time, and then on the third visit, he asked if there was anything he could do, I said, Thanks, but I am OK... but then I said, I am waiting for the Shop Foreman to let me show him the problem, that is what I wanted to do when I first arrived, then said, no, I am OK and thanks for asking.

Things changed about 45 minutes later when he saw me still waiting to talk to the Shop Foreman. He acknowledged that I had been waiting for a long time and asked if he could buy me dinner, and gestured towards the burger station. A short time later, another gentleman came over, introduced himself and said the Shop Foreman would be here shortly. He was right, things changed after that. The Shop Foreman showed up within 2 minutes and off we went. The engine had cooled off, so we parked under a tree and let it heat up. After it heated up, I cracked the throttle and showed him the ruff idle, and also the "surging" problem that I came in for, less than 300 miles earlier. Oh by the way, It was Sir and Mr. Hildy from then on. I did need to leave the van over night.

I know what some must be thinking, and the owner also had the same thought, and said, as he cupped one hand around his mouth, "I wonder if the chair was built by Toyota." We both had a chuckle as he left for his office up stairs.

The Shop Foreman did say, "we want to make this run good when you take it home." We talked about several things, the best idea they came up with was, there was a leak between the plenum and the manifold. When I asked about the scan and the data stream, he said it showed the fact that it was getting more then less fuel, but it didn't tell him what was causing it. This being OBD1, it doesn't give as much information as the newer OBD2.

So here I am sitting at home, my van in the shop, and no where to go... You know, it's not much different than when I have the van at home. So I can't complain... it doesn't do any good it I do.

Tomorrow is a another day, I will let yous all know what they say.

Keith
PS This is a long post, but not as long as the day.
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby astroturf » September 28th 2010, 2:07am

Thanks for the update Keith.

Might have to get you a set of TurfBlasters for your chair though...

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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 2:57am

Turfblasters on my chair, I like that..

Just read the error codes on the chair, looks like RFI/EMI was the culprit. Now I need to find a site for Electric Chair enthusiasts. I need some parts...
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Phantom » September 28th 2010, 6:45pm

Thanks for the update ,you should ask them to make a print out of the data stream so you can take it home and study it and keep it for your records for future use, You be a patient man , to spend nearly the entire day only to have no more info and have to leave it for another day, hope they don't charge you a fortune for any work that they do , seems they should have come to you much earlier with some data and at least try to explain in more detail ,Here is a link to a company that makes a good low cost OBD scanner , I think it works with OBD 1 as well as OBD 2 , but a good thing is also all you really need for OBD 1 is a cable that has the interface to hook up to your van OBD diag port and a pc , preferably a laptop or a really long serial cable , usb starts to lose signal strenth after about 12 ft. unless a repeater is installed inline , they offer free software for OBD 1 . they also offer a combo kit with cables for both OBD 1 & OBD 2 price at about $ 170 . There is also a lot of good reading too

http://www.aldlcable.com/
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby chevy57bert » September 28th 2010, 8:41pm

Thanks for the long update Keith.
If a client comes to us. He don`t have to wait, we will help him in less than 15 min..... (even it`s closing time)..
90% off the problems we can fix at ones. (even it takes 3 hours to do the job) For the other 10% we make a date, later in the week.
We call it `SERVICE`. And we don`t see this at other dealerships.
As a small dealership, we have a big interest to keep the clients Happy.

Hoping for you that your problem is fixed.


`Over 6 hours sitting waiting` Respect Keith, I would shoot him..or blow up the place :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 9:24pm

I think we can put this thread, and problem, to bed. :D When I picked the van up, they talked me through what they did.
1. set the timing... seems it was at a -8*, which emphasized the problem.
2. They also cleaned the TB. I think astroturf called this early on when I first ask for help, Thanks Jim. :thumbup:
It seems I put the shop and techs to task with this one.

The Shop Foreman went for a ride when I asked, what do I do if after I pay and the same thing happens again. We went 20+ miles and the van ran away with itself. Where it usually would shift into 3rd, 3 or 4 times, it shifted only once. Also during an up hill grade, the cruse would kick off, on this test drive, it didn't.

I learned something today, when in neutral, if you open the throttle 5* or less, the engine will start to lope,(some circuit opens and closes) but this shouldn't happen if you are in gear.

They spent a total of 7 hours finding the problem. They checked the vacuum, completely... I mean the seal between the plenum and manifold, the hose to the brakes and PCV. looked at all the little rubber hoses and checked the check valve to make sure it was installed correctly. Also run a diagnosis check on all of the sensors, both today and yesterday. Plus some other things I can't remember.

Their hourly rate is $98. Seems that when the owner got involved, yesterday, things happened quickly. It also went a long way with the bill. I was expecting a large bill, but when I arrived at the Cashier, she said, $104.71. Remember, I went in wanting only the $53 diagnosis in the first place. Actually the first place was about 4 months and two visits earlier. I guess one hour labor charge isn't too bad for all the work they did to find and fix the problem. :dance:

When this first started to happen, or I should say when I first noticed it, Lynn said she thought it was timing. Today when I found out timing played the biggest part of the puzzle, I looked at Lynn and said "I should have listened to you in the first place." :doh: :oops: She smiled back but said nothing. I took some pics of the front of the shop and the counter that I pushed with my chair and will share them later tonight.

Nothing left now but to fill up and get another mileage check.

Thanks goes out to all who have added their thoughts and time on this. I won't name you as there are so many, and with my memory, I may forget someone.
Again, thank you. :ty: :ty: :ty: :ty: :ty:

Keith
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby chevy57bert » September 28th 2010, 9:37pm

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: for that Mechanic

Always listen to Lynn.. Always Keith.. :whack:

:goodpost: :goodpost:
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby astroturf » September 28th 2010, 9:40pm

Congrats Keith,

Although it sounds like you owe Lynn a Dinner Date.

Ya gotta take care of that Womans intuition ya know.

Glad it worked out for you both

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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 9:51pm

Bert, Jim, what can I say. I will plan on a dinner date +, and if I had listened to Lynn more ofter, I would have been much better off. Not only on the van but with other stuff as well. I sure wish I could learn by listening, but seems I am a lost cause. I am sure glad Lynn puts up with me.
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby astroturf » September 28th 2010, 9:53pm

The power of love...

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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Phantom » September 28th 2010, 9:57pm

Great to hear you got it running good again, since you just cleaned the TB the other day , what did they do that you didn't do? Timing was the key , maybe the dist hold down clamp was just loose enough to allow engine vibration to move it a little, hope it is not a worn stretched chain that was compensated by a turn a dist . You may want to have it checked just to see where the timing is at for two reasons. 1. to see how close it is to factory spec setting that will let you know a clue about if chain has jumped a tooth, 2. If you experience any further problems you can check it to see if it has moved and have a reference point for the future. The best thing is you got it running better , congrats on that :layrubber: :rockon:
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 10:08pm

Phantom wrote:The best thing is you got it running better , congrats on that :layrubber: :rockon:

Thanks Phantom, that is the best thing.

By the way, my wife works with the professors in chemical engineering at the UofU. One of the profs. there is one of the patent holders of one type of cat. I asked Lynn to ask him what was the best way to keep a cat in good working order. Seems they need to get hot... short trips are not good for them. He recommends a good run once in a while to keep the sacrifices clean. So with all the rich running, a trip to Wendover, Nevada is in store for the weekend. Good food at a low price, plus it's only 100 miles away.

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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Phantom » September 28th 2010, 10:14pm

He gives you good advice , actually that same advice is good for the entire exhaust system to make sure all the condensation inside the muffler and pipes gets dried so to prevent rust in exhaust system , have fun on your trip :)
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Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 28th 2010, 11:57pm

Phantom wrote:He gives you good advice , actually that same advice is good for the entire exhaust system to make sure all the condensation inside the muffler and pipes gets dried so to prevent rust in exhaust system , have fun on your trip :)

Thanks you, it will be good to get away. I will make sure to record the mileage and we'll see what the change is.

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Years of Membership: 94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years
Posts: 2538
Topics: 71
Images: 44
Joined: February 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Gender: Male
Alias (AKA): Keith
Van Model Year: 1991
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: G30 Bus

Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby Leeann_93 » September 29th 2010, 12:36am

Great! I'm going to guess they thoroughly cleaned the back of the throttle plate, the seat and the ports the various sensors plug into on the throttle body. I'm assuming they replaced the gasket, so they'd have it off to clean it as completely as possible anyway.

I'm glad they made it right :)
'05 Astro AWD vin X
'02 Astro LS AWD vin X
'00 Astro LS AWD - WIP
'99 Safari XLE AWD - broke
'93 AWD EXT vin W - real broke
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Leeann_93
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Firing on 8 Cylinders (L7)
Firing on 8 Cylinders (L7)
Years of Membership: Leeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full yearsLeeann_93 has been a member for 12 full years
Posts: 13814
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Location: MD
Gender: Female
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Van Model Year: 2005
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: LS AWD

Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 29th 2010, 12:44am

Leeann_93 wrote:Great! I'm going to guess they thoroughly cleaned the back of the throttle plate, the seat and the ports the various sensors plug into on the throttle body. I'm assuming they replaced the gasket, so they'd have it off to clean it as completely as possible anyway.

I'm glad they made it right :)

I think you've got it. There was a charge for shop supplies, probably the cleaning fluid. It sure runs nice now.

Keith
'91 Chevy G30 Bus 39.3K Miles


Retired
Safari
87 Safari, 91 Astro
86 Astro, 85 Astro
88 Astro, 92 Astro
89 Astro, 88 Astro

Image
Original Poster [OP]
User avatar
94 Van Guy
250k+ Miles
250k+ Miles
Firing on 5 Cylinders (L3)
Firing on 5 Cylinders (L3)
Years of Membership: 94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years
Posts: 2538
Topics: 71
Images: 44
Joined: February 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Gender: Male
Alias (AKA): Keith
Van Model Year: 1991
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: G30 Bus

Re: 94 GMC surges when it starts in 1st and 2nd

Postby 94 Van Guy [OP] » September 29th 2010, 1:45am

Here are the photos I promised.
The Dealership with burger joint inside and some of the counter I hit.
The photo shows some of the movement. In the photo, someone has moved it back, but not back completely.
Attachments
ASmall 2.jpg
Front of the shop. The Iceburg has been in SLC for more years than me. Great food for a drive-in.
ASmall 2.jpg (56.39 KiB) Viewed 552 times
ASmall 5.jpg
I hit the cabinet on the right side just where the bend is. pushed it back about 8 inches.
ASmall 5.jpg (61.19 KiB) Viewed 552 times
ASmall 6.jpg
They haven't moved it back all the way yet
ASmall 6.jpg (44.11 KiB) Viewed 552 times
'91 Chevy G30 Bus 39.3K Miles


Retired
Safari
87 Safari, 91 Astro
86 Astro, 85 Astro
88 Astro, 92 Astro
89 Astro, 88 Astro

Image
Original Poster [OP]
User avatar
94 Van Guy
250k+ Miles
250k+ Miles
Firing on 5 Cylinders (L3)
Firing on 5 Cylinders (L3)
Years of Membership: 94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years94 Van Guy has been a member for 11 full years
Posts: 2538
Topics: 71
Images: 44
Joined: February 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Gender: Male
Alias (AKA): Keith
Van Model Year: 1991
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: G30 Bus

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