Running Lean - No evap. canister

Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby BustedKnuckle [OP] » October 31st 2015, 5:13am

Long story short...

1995 Chevy Astro V6 AWD 3" lift and AT tires!
It sat for 2 years not being started or ran due to a bad fuel pump.

Finally got around to replacing the fuel pump, fuel filter, distributor, ignition wires, spark plugs, and a few other maintenance items.

Got everything together and fired it up. It ran very poorly. let it run for a few minutes and knew something was wrong. Shut it off and began to investigate. Found out that I had apparently accidentally switched some of the lines on the fuel pump. The two lasrger main lines got switched and it started running better. BUT, This caused the Evaporation Canister to fill with fuel, overflow into the purge solenoid valve and then pour into the throttle body. So maybe I switched all 4 lines?? :whack:

The fuel tank gas cap was also not relieving pressure. If I tightened it down all the way it would build up a ton of pressure and sound like a rocket taking off when I loosened it. Because of this I have put the cap on but not tightened it all the way so pressure can escape.

I cleaned out the throttle body, took the evap canister out completely and plugged the line coming from the fuel pump because it is spewing out gas (attached picture) I also un-plugged the Evap canister purge solenoid valve (other picture) since it wasn't hooked up to the evap canister now and probably full of gas.

So I have been driving the van around for a while now but it is running very lean and mis-firing pretty much constantly. I put new spark plugs in it and they are already getting burnt up. I'm not sure how to proceed in fixing it. Do I still have a line crossed? and is that why gas if flowing through the evap canister line? Is there a way I can just bypass buying a new canister yet get it to run properly? Is it something else entirely? Let me know if I didn't provide enough info and thanks for the help!

~Nate
Attachments
Astro1.jpg
Where the Evap canister USED to be.
Astro2.jpg
Evaporation canister purge solenoid UNPLUGGED.
Astro3.jpg
Fuel system diagram
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby WoodButcher » October 31st 2015, 1:59pm

You have something way wrong if you have liquid fuel to the evap canister. Get a new one, drop the tank and start fresh.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby BustedKnuckle [OP] » October 31st 2015, 11:33pm

One of the things that made it hard was the new pump lines weren't the same as the original. So I kind of had to guess where they were supposed to go because nothing was labeled. I may try switching a line or two and see if it helps. But if not I will buy a new one and start fresh. I did have one other question though. Do I HAVE to buy an evap canister for it to run right or is that solely for emissions? Because again, right now I just have the line plugged.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby WoodButcher » November 1st 2015, 12:21am

I meant the evap canister not the fuel pump. It really is difficult to diagnose anything without all the parts. Replace the evap canister, check the lines to and from the canister, drop the tank and figure out the pump. Fuel is not meant to reach the evap canister.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby chevymaher » November 1st 2015, 10:16am

BustedKnuckle wrote: Do I HAVE to buy an evap canister for it to run right or is that solely for emissions? Because again, right now I just have the line plugged.

I don't have one. Line is just blocked. Mine runs the way it is supposed to.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby WoodButcher » November 1st 2015, 2:52pm

Now you got us interested Randy you'll need to draw up one of these to show us how you blocked yours and what mods you did to that Merc to make it run good...

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Don't leave us with just half the story,,,, :whack:
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby sixsix » November 1st 2015, 4:17pm

I don't think Randy has had his Evap stuff hooked up for quite some time. Well before the 1st rebuild, I think.

I have the 92 "W" Motor w/ CPI and it HAD a "4 Port / 3 Hose" Canister - till Battery Acid ate a giant hole in it.
I wish someone would find a positive solution to all this for both your ( OP ) situation and mine. This style Canister is hard to find.

Junk Yard provided a replacement Canister, but it is for a later year or different Motor - probably the style you ( OP ) have or would use. So far, no problems ( I think ). My Build thread covers the R & R of all this crap.

Seems the "Evaporative System" is the ba$tard step-child of the V6 ( & V8 ) Motors - nobody talks about them - especially the one used for CPI. So nobody finds out much - including me.
And the "Chart/Diagram" posted, like mine, is basically useless for diagnostic purposes.



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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby BustedKnuckle [OP] » November 1st 2015, 4:37pm

UPDATE:

I pulled one of the spark plugs and HOLY CRAP that thing is burnt up. Has white ash'y deposits tell tale of a lean condition (already knew that). A quick trip to the store and 6 spark plugs later AND.... still runs like poo...

I fiddled with the fuel lines and un-capped the line where the evap canister WAS and no fuel squirting out! I re-connected the evap canister purge solenoid valve (even though it wasn't hooked up to an evap canister) and fired her up. ANNNNND... still runs like crap... :whack:

drove it around a bit and things actually started to steady out. after a quick trip to get coffee and breakfast it actually runs pretty decent when its warmed up. Problem is, it still runs like hell when its cold (first started) It wants to stall out if I so much as think about touching the gas pedal. and its still running lean will a strong gas smell. No leaks though... :think:

The next step is to get a running fuel pressure reading in addition to a shut-off reading to see if it drops. Other than that I'm not sure where else to look for a problem. Any Idears?? :shrug:

:ty:
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby AstroWill » November 4th 2015, 5:20am

I would ditch the bracelet while working on a vehicle.

Fuel pressure is going to be what I would focus on.

No need for a diagram or writeup WB, just cap the lines(one under throttle body and one runs to fuel tank) and the EVAP goes bye-bye.

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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby sixsix » November 4th 2015, 2:01pm

AstroWill wrote: ... No need for a diagram or writeup WB, just cap the lines(one under throttle body and one runs to fuel tank) and the EVAP goes bye-bye.


Will - Can you touch on this or expand, elaborate, whatever? I would like to eliminate the "Evap System" from The Van, but still wonder about the harm and why it's there in the first place... where is that gas going to go?

Anybody know any Tech stuff on the Evaporative Emissions System? Wondering about GM's thoughts originally. There is not much online that seems to spell it out to my satisfaction.

I am not that concerned w/ emissions considering how little I drive. I just don't want to inadvertently cause more bad mileage numbers. I would plug and yank every bit of it if I could w/o consequence.

Thanx in advance.



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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby WoodButcher » November 5th 2015, 2:44am

Ditto that Mike, any way I can ditch the pollution control crap and keep her running right I'm in.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby chevymaher » November 5th 2015, 3:18am

sixsix wrote:Anybody know any Tech stuff on the Evaporative Emissions System? Wondering about GM's thoughts originally. There is not much online that seems to spell it out to my satisfaction.

I am not that concerned w/ emissions considering how little I drive. I just don't want to inadvertently cause more bad mileage numbers. I would plug and yank every bit of it if I could w/o consequence.

Thanx in advance.



Mike

Gas evaporates and releases hydrocarbons into the atmosphere. Evap system burns it and due to the lean condition on cylinders close by. It causes and creates much worse emissions being released. But in theory that is what they wanted to do. Just burn it and make water and CO2 wow talk about swell dreams.

Next time your over mike I will pop the hood and you can see all the extra room from me yanking every bit of mine.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby sixsix » November 6th 2015, 3:53pm

chevymaher wrote: ... Next time your over mike I will pop the hood and you can see all the extra room from me yanking every bit of mine.


Yeah, I "Get It", just yanking all that stuff and capping the Throttle Body and Upper Plenum connections. There is also that line running back to the Tank. The W motor has a bit of junk / maybe more than the Z - Simple TBI.

And, on another note... then what about all that unused gas that the Fuel Inj spider provides - But, never uses ... ? These seem like Stupid NOOB questions, but I have always wondered about ANY "Non-Individually Metered" fuel delivery systems - like the W Motor Inj. system. Does it use the Vacuum from the Intake Valve to open that Poppet? Gas being supplied, but not used, unless needed, etc, etc.

Then there is that PCV valve...



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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby Lumpy » November 6th 2015, 4:13pm

sixsix wrote:
And, on another note... then what about all that unused gas that the Fuel Inj spider provides - But, never uses ... ? These seem like Stupid NOOB questions, but I have always wondered about ANY "Non-Individually Metered" fuel delivery systems...



I agree. Lots of wastage. Like the unused radio stations. I mean, c'mon. I'm not listening to rap or hip-hop or pop-country. But my radio has those stations. Surely that affects my MPGs.


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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby AstroWill » November 8th 2015, 5:49pm

sixsix wrote:
AstroWill wrote: ... No need for a diagram or writeup WB, just cap the lines(one under throttle body and one runs to fuel tank) and the EVAP goes bye-bye.


Will - Can you touch on this or expand, elaborate, whatever? I would like to eliminate the "Evap System" from The Van, but still wonder about the harm and why it's there in the first place... where is that gas going to go?

Anybody know any Tech stuff on the Evaporative Emissions System? Wondering about GM's thoughts originally. There is not much online that seems to spell it out to my satisfaction.


The canister collects the fuel vapors(creates smog when it combines with air/sunlight) when they evaporate. Then at the right time while the engine is running the computer opens the valve and allows what was collected to burn off in the engine instead of releasing it into the atmosphere. Those that have never seen smog probably don't care, but I wouldn't eliminate it if at all possible. Your engine gets no benefit from removing it, and it does cause more harm to everyone around you if you do.

The whole fuel system is sealed for this reason and has been like that from the late 60s early 70s.

sixsix wrote:And, on another note... then what about all that unused gas that the Fuel Inj spider provides - But, never uses ... ? These seem like Stupid NOOB questions, but I have always wondered about ANY "Non-Individually Metered" fuel delivery systems - like the W Motor Inj. system. Does it use the Vacuum from the Intake Valve to open that Poppet? Gas being supplied, but not used, unless needed, etc, etc.

Then there is that PCV valve...


You lost me on the unused fuel part...

I for one love the PCV system.

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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby sixsix » November 8th 2015, 6:41pm

AstroWill wrote: ... You lost me on the unused fuel part...
... I for one love the PCV system.

That question was offered only because I have no tech data on how the W Motor's fuel system / injection system works.
I was looking for "Overall How this Works" kinda' description.

Yeah, "unused gas" does sounds ridiculous.
Oh, and what's to love about the PCV system ?? Thanks in advance for an easy answer.
I think I will quit here and leave the OP's thread alone ( thanks for the space... ).
Post the Q on my own.



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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby AstroWill » November 8th 2015, 7:14pm

sixsix wrote:
AstroWill wrote: ... You lost me on the unused fuel part...
... I for one love the PCV system.

That question was offered only because I have no tech data on how the W Motor's fuel system / injection system works.
I was looking for "Overall How this Works" kinda' description.

Yeah, "unused gas" does sounds ridiculous.
Oh, and what's to love about the PCV system ?? Thanks in advance for an easy answer.
I think I will quit here and leave the OP's thread alone ( thanks for the space... ).
Post the Q on my own.

Sounds good, pop it into a new thread and we can continue there. PCV reduces contaminants in the engine crankcase and prevents un-burned hydrocarbons(blow-by/etc) from going into our atmosphere, what isn't to love about that?

Un-burned hydrocarbons cause smog, it burns these off in the engine so yea anything that is used to reduce or prevent that is a good thing.

wikipedia wrote:GM's Cadillac Division, which had built many tanks during WWII, recognized that installation of PCV on vehicles could bring the first major reduction in automotive hydrocarbon emissions. After confirming the PCV valve's effectiveness at hydrocarbon reduction, GM offered the PCV solution to the entire U.S. automobile industry, royalty free, through its trade association, the Automobile Manufacturers Association (AMA)

Thanks GM!

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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby Zebediah III » November 8th 2015, 8:09pm

My Cayenne is 9 years old now and twice the gasket on the Evap has failed causing extreme lean-out, O2 codes etc. It really shows in the fuel trim, and also the vehicle self tests by pressure testing the evap system and tank on start up, then fails IM. The Evap can cause some problems once it acts up, that's for sure. I have seen where people pump so much fuel into the car that they saturate the evap cannister with liquid gasoline and their check engine light comes on.
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Re: Running Lean - No evap. canister

Postby AstroWill » November 8th 2015, 8:58pm

Zebediah III wrote:My Cayenne is 9 years old now and twice the gasket on the Evap has failed causing extreme lean-out, O2 codes etc. It really shows in the fuel trim, and also the vehicle self tests by pressure testing the evap system and tank on start up, then fails IM. The Evap can cause some problems once it acts up, that's for sure.

Sounds like a faulty design on that one.


Zebediah III wrote:I have seen where people pump so much fuel into the car that they saturate the evap cannister with liquid gasoline and their check engine light comes on.

When it clicks off automatically they should stop. :) Sometimes the stores pumps don't shut off properly and some are set way to sensitive that they don't work properly either and then they have to keep resetting them. Once I switch to an electric vehicle that will be a thing of the past for me. :)

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