overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby redfury » September 5th 2011, 4:46am

I'm going to disagree based on logic.

First of all, if the transmission creates so much heat all by itself, why is it connected to this teeny tiny part of the radiator to cool it down, and when we ADD another cooler to it, it's regulated generally to a 10x10 plate? The transmission is a hydraulic pump, plain and simple. The act of ENGAGING the transmission and FORCING the clutches together is where the heat comes from.

If you start your van up and it's -10F outside, what's going to heat up more sitting in the driveway? The engine of course. It's a heat pump, not a hydraulic pump. Your hydraulic pump is just sitting their moving fluid around with no strain on it. Warming up your car in winter warms up the transmission a little before you take off. If the tranny made so much heat on its own, then the engineers wouldn't worry about protecting it from extreme cold temps by not allowing the OD gear to engage until a certain operating temp is achieved. The strain on the transmission is where the heat comes from.

Simply put, the engine is going to overheat without a radiator far quicker than the transmission if left to recirculate their own juices, and the engine will do it sitting idle or being pushed to its limits. The transmission is going to survive much longer in an idle situation, only to experience heat failure once put into service.
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 5:01am

drmmhmd wrote:
Phantom wrote:

ALL of my info comes directly from GM engineering dept , and SPX Filtran (makers of all oem)and Hayden transmissions , one of the most Highly respected companies in this area expertise ,

When I was planning on installing a cooler on my van I spoke with several transmissions shops and received a different opinion from nearly every shop transmission tech I spoke with , so I decided to engage with the higher level engineers who design transmissions rather than just guys who replace the parts


So SPX Filtran is making all OEM GM transmissions now?

So what did these higher level engineers tell you, that you "engaged with". That you should install one of their products? Obvious on that one. I am guessing that you "engaged them" by reading their website? How do you control the operating temperature of your transmission? Do you have a thermostatic control? Obviously thermal output varies and the engine coolant temperature varies so how did you maintain this 174 degree ideal target? I am curious as to how this "engagement" enriched your bolt in cooler application.


dude it really funny how you troll the threads only to see if you can find some post that you can differ on , so as to try to elevate your understanding of things over someone else

The transmission needs to be in gear to warm the fluid up properly , it has been an established practice for generations to drive the car 7-10 miles to get a accurate warm level reading , and a separate reading mark for a cold fluid reading

Contact the sources I named and ask them , they are true engineers
here is a head start for you
http://www.spx.com/en/
http://www.haydenauto.com/ROOT-Home/Content.aspx

Can you read ??? Did I say that ???
If you only had a clue ,, the last time I proved you wrong , you acted like a child , not interested in your depraved behavior anymore ,,,GM ENGINEERING yes they wanted me to put their products on the cars they make and one of the vendors they deal with is
SPX Filtran , if you do your own research you will find just what I did
I know you have a hard time understanding that 174 is cooler than 195 , but that is your problem, of course the radiator must be cooler than the transmission , so that shows you that the transmission does create heat greater than the engine cooling system and the radiator alone is not capable of remaining at 174 and still keep engine operating temps where they design them to be , If now a that is a BIG IF , you do some research you'll find what I said to be true ,,,contact GM engineering and ask them why they run the fluid out of the transmission to the bottom of the radiator and up into the hotter water at the top of radiator ,, you have a lot to learn
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby drmmhmd » September 5th 2011, 5:33am

Phantom wrote:
drmmhmd wrote:
Phantom wrote:

ALL of my info comes directly from GM engineering dept , and SPX Filtran (makers of all oem)and Hayden transmissions , one of the most Highly respected companies in this area expertise ,

When I was planning on installing a cooler on my van I spoke with several transmissions shops and received a different opinion from nearly every shop transmission tech I spoke with , so I decided to engage with the higher level engineers who design transmissions rather than just guys who replace the parts


So SPX Filtran is making all OEM GM transmissions now?

So what did these higher level engineers tell you, that you "engaged with". That you should install one of their products? Obvious on that one. I am guessing that you "engaged them" by reading their website? How do you control the operating temperature of your transmission? Do you have a thermostatic control? Obviously thermal output varies and the engine coolant temperature varies so how did you maintain this 174 degree ideal target? I am curious as to how this "engagement" enriched your bolt in cooler application.


dude it really funny how you troll the threads only to see if you can find some post that you can differ on , so as to try to elevate your understanding of things over someone else [/quote]

The transmission needs to be in gear to warm the fluid up properly , it has been an established practice for generations to drive the car 7-10 miles to get a accurate warm level reading , and a separate reading mark for a cold fluid reading[/quote]

[/quote]Contact the sources I named and ask them , they are true engineers
here is a head start for you
http://www.spx.com/en/
http://www.haydenauto.com/ROOT-Home/Content.aspx[/quote]

[/quote]Can you read ??? Did I say that ???
If you only had a clue ,, the last time I proved you wrong , you acted like a child , not interested in your depraved behavior anymore ,,,GM ENGINEERING yes they wanted me to put their products on the cars they make and one of the vendors they deal with is
SPX Filtran , if you do your own research you will find just what I did [/quote]

[/quote]I know you have a hard time understanding that 174 is cooler than 195 , but that is your problem, of course the radiator must be cooler than the transmission , so that shows you that the transmission does create heat greater than the engine cooling system and the radiator alone is not capable of remaining at 174 and still keep engine operating temps where they design them to be , If now a that is a BIG IF , you do some research you'll find what I said to be true ,,,contact GM engineering and ask them why they run the fluid out of the transmission to the bottom of the radiator and up into the hotter water at the top of radiator ,, you have a lot to learn[/quote]

The transmission does not need to be in gear to warm up. The pump and converter are operating at all times. Cold levels are of little meaning, the only relevant level is to follow the procedure in the manual. Which is invariably warming up the transmission in park (yes, in park) applying the parking brake, and checking the level at vehicle operating temperature.

[/quote]"dude it really funny how you troll the threads only to see if you can find some post that you can differ on , so as to try to elevate your understanding of things over someone else "[/quote]

the frank reality is that many people on these boards have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, including you on this topic. you are not as bad as cowbowdan or chevymaher but certainly number three. "trolling" would be true if what i posted was incorrect. but again, like cowboydan, you contradict yourself when you are wrong. how would i elevate my understanding of things over someone else???? "differ" does not mean I am wrong. collective stupidity is harder rare.

when exactly did you prove that i was wrong? and what was my "childish response".

are you saying that GMC has a business relationship with SPX Filtran? again, you are not coherent.

[/quote]"Contact the sources I named and ask them , they are true engineers "[/quote]

so what exactly am i supposed to ask?

this is an amazing example of psychobabble
"
[/quote]"I know you have a hard time understanding that 174 is cooler than 195 , but that is your problem, of course the radiator must be cooler than the transmission , so that shows you that the transmission does create heat greater than the engine cooling system and the radiator alone is not capable of remaining at 174 and still keep engine operating temps where they design them to be , If now a that is a BIG IF , you do some research you'll find what I said to be true ,,,contact GM engineering and ask them why they run the fluid out of the transmission to the bottom of the radiator and up into the hotter water at the top of radiator ,, you have a lot to learn[/quote]

it is you that has a lot to learn.
Last edited by drmmhmd on September 5th 2011, 5:52am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby RECox286 » September 5th 2011, 5:45am

Wow ! I guess it is a good thing that we are all on the same side. I'd hate to have to face you as an enemy... Oh, BTW, we aren't campaning for President here, just trying to fix trucks.

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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby redfury » September 5th 2011, 5:52am

RECox286 wrote:Wow ! I guess it is a good thing that we are all on the same side. I'd hate to have to face you as an enemy... Oh, BTW, we aren't campaning for President here, just trying to fix trucks.

Bob

We aren't? I thought the campaigning season was just ramping up? :confused:

Btw, drmmhmd, I could barely figure out what you were even trying to say up there...you need to keep the quotes separate from your responses..I'm just sayin' :blah:
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 2:11pm

drmmhmd wrote:The transmission does not need to be in gear to warm up. The pump and converter are operating at all times. Cold levels are of little meaning, the only relevant level is to follow the procedure in the manual. Which is invariably warming up the transmission in park (yes, in park) applying the parking brake, and checking the level at vehicle operating temperature. .


I have provided for you what GM says to do to get an accurate reading since you think you know it all
Notice it says to drive 15 miles when the outside temp is at least 50 degrees to get the fluid
UP TO operating temp

Cold readings are for reference only and not as accurate as a HOT reading , you shoukd take your van to a dealership so they can show YOU how to do it :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
drmmhmd wrote:So what did these higher level engineers tell you, that you "engaged with". .

Since I have already told you I suggest you try reading it again , this time slow enough for it to sink in so that you can understand it

drmmhmd wrote: I am guessing that you "engaged them" by reading their website?.

You guess at things way too often .....ever hear of a telephone??? try coming in to the 21st century :lol:

To contact the GM Engineering dept , it takes time because you have to go through channels ,as they are not readily available to the public , but can be reached if are willing to wait
drmmhmd wrote:so what exactly am i supposed to ask?

You can talk about the weather :poke: ......... , if you don't know what to ask then you have a problem :think: :think:

drmmhmd wrote: How do you control the operating temperature of your transmission? Do you have a thermostatic control?..

Yes ....you actually are catching on at least a little , you a bit slow , but getting there :dance:

drmmhmd wrote:are you saying that GMC has a business relationship with SPX Filtran?

That's what most companies call it when they contract with another company to be the one who builds parts for the cars they are building , they have many vendors



drmmhmd wrote:the frank reality is that many people on these boards have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, including you on this topic. you are not as bad as cowbowdan or chevymaher but certainly number three. "trolling" would be true if what i posted was incorrect. but again, like cowboydan, you contradict yourself when you are wrong. how would i elevate my understanding of things over someone else???? "differ" does not mean I am wrong. collective stupidity is harder rare.


You not only want to demean everyone you talk at , but you have a hard time comprehending what people say

drmmhmd wrote:how would i elevate my understanding of things over someone else???? "differ" does not mean I am wrong. collective stupidity is harder rare.


what you need to understand is that it means you seek to place your understanding of things above what others say ,, you are saying in your way that you think you are smarter and better than everyone else . you have indeed a difficulty in understanding many things

By trolling I mean you are on the prowl actively looking for and seeking out threads and posts in which you can differ with a previous poster for the purpose of trying to prove you are better , but all you do is make your self appear shallow minded , you do not just add a compliment to anyone , you even pick threads that have been dead for 6-8 months and pick on those who have not posted in almost a year
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby drmmhmd » September 5th 2011, 3:07pm

glad you provided that little cut and paste so now i know what colour the transmission dip stick is and how to check oil level. without that i would not have known how to do it. I am sure that the engineers at GM talked to you on the phone, I am sure you called the whitehouse on voting strategies too. Was it Obama who answered the phone? generally I am smarter than everyone else. I marvel at the lack of understanding on this blog. most of the problems on here can be solved with a $20 manual. Glad you are tracking and following my posts. you will learn a lot.

So again, SPX Filtran makes filters for GMC?, or are they an aftermarket supplier. I manufacture numerous parts for GM cars but I do not do it on behalf of GMC.
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 4:06pm

drmmhmd wrote:glad you provided that little cut and paste so now i know what colour the transmission dip stick is and how to check oil level. without that i would not have known how to do it.

That is apparent , , It come directly from the Owners Manual that is provided by GM in all of their vehicles and has been that way for decades for FREE , just like I said previously :P :P
drmmhmd wrote: I am sure that the engineers at GM talked to you on the phone, generally I am smarter than everyone else. I marvel at the lack of understanding on this blog. most of the problems on here can be solved with a $20 manual.


You would be amazed at who you can contact if you are willing to put forth the effort , but people like you who think they are smarter than everyone are not willing to open your eyes and mind to learn . Your pride is blinding you :blah: :blah: :blah: you are a legend in your own mind :lol:

The way that many large corporations are setup is that they figure most people will give up trying if they stall off the average consumer , but good things come to those who are patient , when they see that you are going to keep at it till you get through you get an extension or phone number of the department you want to speak with . It setup that way so that only those who persevere get through

drmmhmd wrote:So again, SPX Filtran makes filters for GMC?, or are they an aftermarket supplier.


Are you not able to find this out yourself? you say you are so much smarter than everyone else , if that were true then you would know :lol: :lol:

OEM is only available to the manufacturer ; aftermarket is availabale to the consumer market

AcDelco /Delphi are both an oem and a aftermarket manufacturer , the same products they make for car manufacturers they also offer to the consumer public through their retail outlets

SPX Filtran is the same way , they contract with oem and also have an aftermarket retail division for the public

When I was researching for oem brake pads I found that there is a company that makes the brake pads for many car makers , GM, ford, Chrsylers and foreign car makers . The compay only sells to large car maker corporations and is not even known of by most people because they only sell to oem and not the public , all purchase orders are in the quanity of thousands

One has to wonder if you are as smart as you say you are , why do you not know this elementary level stuff ??
when you say that you are smarter than everyone ,,,you fool only yourself , :liar: :whistle:
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Lumpy » September 5th 2011, 5:00pm

Phantom wrote:

You guess at things way too often .....ever hear of a telephone??? try coming in to the 21st century :lol:



Interestingly enough, and about as on topic as a big part of this thread...
I have very rarely used a telephone in the 21st century. Had to a few times.
But I think I can honestly say I've used a phone perhaps two dozen times
since the turn of the century. It's September as I type this and I've made
three calls this year.


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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby redfury » September 5th 2011, 5:09pm

Lumpy wrote:
Phantom wrote:

You guess at things way too often .....ever hear of a telephone??? try coming in to the 21st century :lol:



Interestingly enough, and about as on topic as a big part of this thread...
I have very rarely used a telephone in the 21st century. Had to a few times.
But I think I can honestly say I've used a phone perhaps two dozen times
since the turn of the century. It's September as I type this and I've made
three calls this year.


Lump


many people don't even maintain an actual land line anymore. However, you still need to make a phone call for important things, like calling your mother. :poke:
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 5:31pm

Lumpy wrote:
Phantom wrote:You guess at things way too often .....ever hear of a telephone??? try coming in to the 21st century :lol:

I have very rarely used a telephone in the 21st century. Had to a few times.
But I think I can honestly say I've used a phone perhaps two dozen times
since the turn of the century. It's September as I type this and I've made
three calls this year.
Lump

Wow that is a rarity ,,in this world of cell phones where people are constantly on the telephone when they are driving their cars , or shopping in the supermarket , and everywhere else ,,,
,, seems most people these days can't go 11 minutes with a phone call :lol: :lol:
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby RECox286 » September 5th 2011, 6:23pm

Hey Youse guys,

Thank you for airing out all the laundry for everybodys' benefit. I thought that the PM feature was the best way to keep your flaming opinions to yourselves, but, I guess I was wrong. Perhaps just once before I die, I will be pleasantly surprised and not have to "read all about it". I know: "So don't read it". But I'm curious enough to whitness two guys (?) slug it out. Ha.

Besides, I really thought that this thread was all about TRANNY COOLERS...

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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 6:34pm

RECox286 wrote: I really thought that this thread was all about TRANNY COOLERS...

Bob

It has been covered , is there any other question on tranny coolers you would like to know?
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Lumpy » September 5th 2011, 8:12pm

RECox286 wrote:
Besides, I really thought that this thread was all about TRANNY COOLERS...


Yesterday I heard a guy on his cellphone
talking to someone about tranny coolers.

Um...I'm not 100% sure the "tranny" in this case was the same kind we have under our vans.


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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby rev_les » September 5th 2011, 9:40pm

The reciprocating parts, AND the torque converter create a lot of heat. Buy a large enough external cooler, and your radiator will thank you. Ditching the radiator oil cooler and replacing it with an external helps it a lot too, the extremely hot oil and trans fluid is what makes the plastic tanks get brittle and crack.As a secondary benefit,no coolant can get into the transmission and engine oil that way. If you're towing a lot, yes, an electric fan will help.
As for the tranny cooler, I suppose the volunteer fire dept. could hose down the parking lot to the local..... ehh...male/male companion drinking and dancing establishment! :rofl:
Figure out the problem before buying parts
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 5th 2011, 11:22pm

If a person does ditch a factory radiator trans fluid cooler a couple things to keep in mind

Transmission fluid temperatures can often reach as high as 325 degrees , when deleting the factory radiator trans fluid cooler that hot fluid will travel aprox 6-8 feet in the small diameter line in the external cooler and back to the transmission being pumped at about 16 psi or so , it goes from the transmission to cooler and back in a mere amount of a few seconds of time and all it has is some air going over it to cool it down ,

The high temps will cause earlier breakdown of the rubber hose if used to install and the high temp of fluid returning back top the trans will deteriorate the fluid faster from thermal break down needing more frequent trans oil changes , but due to the fact that most people who exclusively use only external cooler ditching the factory cooler don't use a fluid temp gauge and have no idea just how hot the fluid is as they are only going on the assumption that all is ok only because they have not had a breakdown yet , like driving on bald tires if you don't look at them to know they are bald , you find out when you breakdown. :)

1. Try an experiment to see what results are
heat up an object say like apiece of rebar to 325 degrees and heat up a pan of water to 195 degrees
Now remove the rebar from the fire with something that can securely grip it and wave it around in the and see how long it takes to cool down

Reheat the rebar to 325 and then remove it from the fire and then dunk it in the pan of water at 195 degrees and you will notice that it cools down to a lower temp than it did with just air cooling and at a much faster rate ,,,
simple logic that water will cool it down faster

2. Your local transmission guy knows this but also wants your business , so telling you it is better to run without the factory cooler will result in a transmission that will need service sooner than one running with both factory and external coolers , and there is no way to blame him for the early failure , for a transmission that would normally last 100, 000 miles with both will only last about 1/2 to 1/10 as long and you can't prove it was a result of no factory cooler as there are no physical tell tale signs

You can run non-detergent oil in the engine and drive it for years with no failure , but it will not last as long as when using detergent oil,

If you have a vehicle under warranty and you have a problem running without the factory cooler , you foot the bill by voiding the warranty

Just cause you can run without it does not mean it is wise
Best practice is using both , but to each his own it your money :)
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Lumpy » September 6th 2011, 12:04am

A year or so ago, I installed a Tru-Cool 4544 trans cooler.
I installed it the recommended way, inline with the existing, radiator bound cooler.
The new cooler is AFTER the radiator coils. I also installed a temp gauge.

I don't know what the temp was like prior to the new cooler, I didn't have a gauge then.
But now, I don't think I've ever seen it climb above 160 deg. Essentially ALL of my driving
is 3 miles max, one way, stop for 30 min, then 3 miles return. The ambient air temp here
in Phoenix in the shade is around 110+ this past month or so. So the ambient temp under
the hood is surely a LOT more than that.

That little cooler took about an hour to install, no special tools. Removing the plastic
front grille was the most time consuming. I did a write up with pics around here somewhere.

Heat kills cars here in Phoenix. The guys and gals at local Checkerpepzone are constantly out
front installing new batteries. Discount tire has all it's bays filled and a stack of Lexus/Hummer/Cadillacs
waiting. All the lifts at the dreaded Aamco and similar chain trans/brake places are full. It's HOT :happy-sunny:

And with all that, my little 700R4 is cruising along at 160 degrees or less, under what's probably the
worst kind of conditions there could be (short distance, stop/start, extreme heat).


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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 6th 2011, 1:00am

Lumpy wrote:But now, I don't think I've ever seen it climb above 160 deg. Essentially ALL of my driving
is 3 miles max, one way, stop for 30 min, then 3 miles return.
Heat kills cars here in Phoenix. The guys and gals at local Checkerpepzone are constantly out
front installing new batteries. Discount tire has all it's bays filled and a stack of Lexus/Hummer/Cadillacs
waiting. All the lifts at the dreaded Aamco and similar chain trans/brake places are full. It's HOT :happy-sunny:

.Lump

well at least something good in financial income for the local community :D

It takes at least 7 miles to get up to operating temp which is probably why you don't see it go over 160 , but in that hot place it be best to drive as little as possible till the temps cool down a bit , as you have noticed heat kills everything except roaches :lol:
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby tinworm [OP] » September 6th 2011, 1:15pm

Update-
On sunday morning, I wasted a lot of time getting extremely angry not being able to find the parts at 3 different auto stores locally, and dealing with idiotic, or obstructionist representatives at Napa, auto zone, and even advanced. The parts were either not in stock, damaged, stolen, or very flimsy.

I did end up buying a crappy cooler from auto zone for the moment, but since all the auto stores were over half an hour away, and since I had then gone to three, I had used up my available time, so it didn't get installed until I had to drive back. Decided to chance it.

The van made it back ok amazingly, I added another 40 miles to the drive by heading south to the interstate which is relatively flat with well graded slopes. The rear seal is totally blown, Im sure the front may be as well, but the transmission has not exhibited any problems yet even though the fluid was very burnt. Im dropping it off for a flush and filter tomorrow as well as the rear seal. The van was due for a tire rotation anyway, so these guys might as well take care of the flush while its there.

In the meantime, I am ordering the nice cooler off the internet for installation later, and the fitting set. I might as well also install a temp gauge, where is the best place to tap in for this?

Im sure I may have done permanent damage, or if not, possibly taken a considerable amount of life off the tranny. The trailer was HEAVY on the return trip. At 180 K on the original tranny, ill keep my eyes open for another just in case, but any improvements I make to this one will be useful for a rebuild or replacement anyway.
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Re: overheated tranny, need to install emergency oil cooler

Postby Phantom » September 6th 2011, 2:08pm

tinworm wrote:
\. Im dropping it off for a flush and filter tomorrow as well as the rear seal. The van was due for a tire rotation anyway, so these guys might as well take care of the flush while its there.

In the meantime, I am ordering the nice cooler off the internet for installation later, and the fitting set. I might as well also install a temp gauge, where is the best place to tap in for this?


The place to tap into the line for a temperature gauge would be in the line coming out of the transmission , that way you get a good idea of what the temperature is inside the transmission ; which is why you want to find out what the fluid temp is .

If you measure the fluid temp after the cooler it cannot tell you what the heat temp is inside the transmission because the fluid will have cooled somewhat .

If they use a power flush machine it should be done with a new filter installed or the power machine can force the particles trapped in the dirty filter back into the transmission.

You probably have incurred some damage but if it is still working good you may be able to drive it long enough to prepare for a new or rebuilt unit in the future

Hayden 679 trans cooler or Imperial 243012 Plate style cooler is for class "A" motorhome's towing up to 10,000 lbs.
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