PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby stent » May 15th 2021, 8:12pm

more progress......
i found a cool tuner shop here in denver to play with my "0411" PCM. they assigned my VIN, disabled the VATS, turned on the fans & the AC pressure sender circuits.
i got a JY 2002 astro/safari battery tray that has the correct mount for the 0411 - i still need to swap that battery mount in to my van (the battery tray bolts to the inner fender. the '99 & '02 vans use the same inner fender part number so it should bolt right in).
Then i need to change all of the wires in my black box PCM harness connectors to the 0411 PCM harness connectors, then see how it all actually works together (my 0411 came from a 2002 safari, so it's got the closest stock programming compared to my '99 that i can think of). if i need to, the tuner shop can tweak it - whew!.
i look at doing things like this as a fun hobby; the worst thing that could happen is i ride my bike for a while until i either sort it out or i give up & put everything back the way it was.......
COMP1.jpg

COMP2.jpg

COMP3.jpg


the tuner shop had a camaro or corvette 12" dual fan assembly sitting around so i snagged it while i was there.
the top & bottom lips on this e-fan shroud fit perfectly around the top & bottom of the core on the new radiator i got.
i still have to come up with a snug permanent mount for the fan assembly, i don't want there to be any way it can flop around.....
efan1.jpg

efan4.jpg

efan2.jpg

efan3.jpg

efan5.jpg

efan6.jpg

efan7.jpg

:wave:
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby WinnieVan [OP] » May 20th 2021, 7:27pm

Gettin' after it! Good job.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby OverLander » May 26th 2021, 4:15pm

Thanks OP this should be a sticky...

I've switched over to efans but did it through a relay and temp switch. After checking DTCs and playing with my transmission tune I noticed I had the option for efan control. Was looking for the pinouts wahla, found them... Thank you.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby stent » May 27th 2021, 10:57pm

here's another, newer, more detailed link from performancetrucks.net dealing with the PCM Efan control........
:text-link: https://www.performancetrucks.net/forum ... 385/page1/ :text-link:

here's 2 useful downloads from the above link :

this is the schematic for the 2005/06 silverado Efan relays that i've been wanting to get at the junkyard :
2005-silverado-efan-schematic-b.jpg
2005 silverado e-fan schematic


ac control schematic :
2002-silverado-auto-acc-control-schematic-b.jpg
2002 silverado auto acc control schematic



i made scan prints of the PCM connector pages from the 1999 & 2002 Astro/Safari manuals and took a whack at marking them up to make a wiring harness repinning chart. it's not yet fit for public consumption. when i get it cleaned up a bit more (still unfinished for sure but i'll try to explain clearly to you guys what i'm lacking) i'll post it all for your scrutiny - i want to know where every wire goes BEFORE i try to repin the harness. when & if it works i'll make a final chart & post it for anybody that wants to give changing from a black box to an 0411 PCM a shot in the future.
pin-mess.jpg
repinning-mess


i'm going to do this in stages because the van is my daily driver and i don't want to totally mess up trying to do everything at once.......

first stage, i need to change the lower intake manifold gasket, and soon because it's starting to leak a little bit again. the leak started right after thanksgiving & i've been tiptoeing around since then with stopleak plugging it up. prepping for that engine work, i'll get a local shop to detergent flush the cooling system to get out as much of the stop-leak that i put in as they can. while at the shop i'll get them to evacuate the refrigerant from the AC lines. i'll change the intake gasket among other things and change the AC high pressure line that i will have the pressure sensor bung welded on to. get that done & have the AC system recharged.

second stage, i'll repin the wiring harnesss, swap in the 0411 computer & get up & running with it (or not - this is the last best place to throw in the towel). once i've got confidence in the 0411 i'll put in the silverado Efan harness that i have yet to get & hook it up to the PCM. hook up the AC pressure sensor to the PCM. i'm not going to mount my Efans yet or strip off the mechanical fan or the fan shroud. i ordered 3 cheapo dc voltmeters from amazon to hook up to the pressure sensor & the 2 Efan connectors. checking out the voltmeters while driving around in hot summer weather, i should be able to make darn sure that everything is working as intended while driving around with the mechanical fan still cooling everything.

THEN i'll change the radiator out & mount the Efans and live happily ever after - whew, busy summer ahead - september is when i renew my license plate so i need to get an emissions test before the end of the month, & i can't have any trouble codes that would illuminate the check engine light at that time.

voltmeters :
Untitled.jpg
dc voltmeter


:wave:
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby stent » June 3rd 2021, 10:37pm

i got the pressure sensor fitting attached to the new refrigerant line i bought :
TUBE1.jpg

TUBE2.jpg

TUBE3.jpg

TUBE4.jpg

:banana:
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby WinnieVan [OP] » June 4th 2021, 12:29am

Looks real, real good.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby Birdshake » June 4th 2021, 10:51pm

You beat me to it Stent!
Tiged this today.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby stent » June 4th 2021, 11:19pm

that's great Birdshake!!!! :thumbup:
looks like we picked about the same place for the fitting on the high pressure line....
i'm really glad to see that i'm not the only one still plugging away at this !
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby chrichardson » June 5th 2021, 5:23pm

I just finished installing a 2 speed radiator fan on my 2005 Astro over the course of the last couple days using the info from the first post. Happy to report everything works as planned. The low speed fan kicks on whenever the A/C compressor cycles on at any speed under 40MPH (programmable in the PCM). I copied over the values from a LS1 Camaro for fan on/off temperatures and A/C pressures into the van's PCM. I used a Derale 17 inch fan and low speed is so quiet I can only hear it at idle if the HVAC fan and radio are both off. I'm glad she doesn't sound like a garbage truck taking off from a stop anymore!
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby WinnieVan [OP] » June 5th 2021, 6:03pm

Nice to hear!

Wait a second -- how did you get the speeds to work? I tried and tried and couldn't get that override to happen. What programming tools did you use? Please share -- as this functionality baffled me when I was doing it and it'd be nice to know how it works.

Also -- how did you get the AC pressures into the PCM? AFAIK, the Astro doesn't have those inputs without adding a sensor.

Also -- it's been awhile -- but having the fan run only when the compressor is cycling isn't really the intended... you really want the fan running the entire time A/C is on -- or at least have it respond to temperature (or speed).
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby chrichardson » June 5th 2021, 7:18pm

The PCM is set up to control 2 fans, one on for low speed and both on for high speed. The derale fan I used has 3 wires, one ground, one 12V powered for low speed and another 12V powered for high speed. It needs both of the 12V wires powered for the high speed, so it works out well with the van's PCM keeping both relays powered for the high speed setting.

I used HPTuners, I already had my PCM unlocked with it to set up the Tow/Haul button to force torque converter lockup, so I just went to the fans tab and configured it with the info from the first post. Told it there were 2 fans, set the A/C recirculate pin to control the second fan, copied temperature and A/C pressure settings over from an F-body LS1 (although I don't think it uses the pressures). Then added 2 wires to the PCM to ground the relays, and used one of the upfitter terminals for the power side of the relays. I'll get screenshots of how the tune is configured when I get home today.

The low speed fan only comes on when the compressor is running, I don't think there's too much of an advantage to keeping it running the entire time the A/C is requested. The compressor only pumps refrigerant through the condenser while its on, then the liquid refrigerant sits in the receiver until it slowly evaporates through the evaporator core until there's enough gas pressure at the suction side of the compressor for it to kick on again.

I'd have to rig up some sort of light to tell me the fan is turning off above the speed setting. It's too quiet to hear at speed, but the PCM should turn it off according to the tune.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby chrichardson » June 6th 2021, 12:54am

Alright, I was able to use HPTuners to watch the fans while driving at different speeds and cycling the A/C. At 20MPH, the low speed fan would come on while the A/C compressor clutch was engaged. At 50MPH, the fans never came on regardless of A/C operation. Unfortunately there's 2 places to set the speed for when the fan no longer turns on with A/C and mine are set to 30MPH and 45MPH, so I'm not sure which one the computer is referencing for now. Anyways here's the 2 pages of the tune file I changed from stock as well as how I wired the relays. The green highlighted things were all that I changed. There's a spot in the fan table for minimum run time, I'll try setting that to 1 minute as that should make the fan run continuously in low speed while A/C is requested. If that works then mechanical modifications won't be needed to add a pressure sensor.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby chrichardson » June 6th 2021, 3:51am

So at 40MPH the radiator fan stayed off regardless of A/C operation, so it looks like the PCM is referencing the Fan 1 enable/disable speeds. Not sure what the A/C fan disable speed is for then. Also I set the minimum run time for Fan 1 at 120 seconds, but minimum run time gets calculated from the first signal to turn on the fan. This causes the fan to stay on for at least 2 minutes then turn off as soon as it's no longer needed. While testing this my A/C compressor would engage for 20 seconds, then disengage for 10 seconds, so the A/C would cycle around 4 times then the fan would turn off for a couple seconds before turning on again the next time the compressor engaged.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby sfeaver » June 7th 2021, 9:05pm

A/C fan disable should turn fan off above the set speed, if its on for air conditioning. Also, AC enable PSI can be set a bit higher, maybe 100 PSI or so, and its referring to High side pressure. At that temperature you probably dont need fans. Fan 2 could come on at 180 psi or so. Since you have HPTuners, if you could find a car tune, you could compare numbers. I have EFILive. Also, reading the descriptions in EFILive, I believe On temp with A/C on means Cooling Fan #1 will turn on if the engine coolant temperature is above this value and the A/C is on. So should be higher than 60F, as its refering to coolant temperature. I'd try 190F. Thats a backup anyway, the high side should turn the fans on.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby chrichardson » June 8th 2021, 4:20am

sfeaver wrote:A/C fan disable should turn fan off above the set speed, if its on for air conditioning. Also, AC enable PSI can be set a bit higher, maybe 100 PSI or so, and its referring to High side pressure. At that temperature you probably dont need fans. Fan 2 could come on at 180 psi or so.


That's what I thought too, but the fan stayed off above the 30MPH set point in the Fan 1 settings table. I think those two settings might be redundant then? Also I don't have the high side pressure sensor installed, so just ignore the numbers I plugged in there. I attached a stock tune for those that would like to copy it. I don't think adding a high side pressure sensor would gain much besides the low speed fan staying on for a couple seconds after the compressor turns off, but that's just my guess. Right now my low speed fan runs with the A/C compressor under 30MPH, and the air stays cold at a stop, so this setup works good enough for me.

sfeaver wrote:Also, reading the descriptions in EFILive, I believe On temp with A/C on means Cooling Fan #1 will turn on if the engine coolant temperature is above this value and the A/C is on. So should be higher than 60F, as its refering to coolant temperature. I'd try 190F. Thats a backup anyway, the high side should turn the fans on.


The stock tune is set at 32F, that just keeps the fan from turning on with the A/C during a cold start as its not needed when the condenser is that cold already. I'll bump this back down to 32F if I have troubles with defroster performance next winter.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby WinnieVan [OP] » June 9th 2021, 11:06pm

Ah ha! I think I see where I went wrong with my tune with AstroWill...

Image

I have:
Fan1 On Coolant Temp = 98.3..
Fan1 On Coolant Temp - A/C ON = 98.3

Seems if I set that A/C ON temp below 98.3

I'd get the behavior I want...
Fan 1 Off Vehicle Speed A/C ON = 45 MPH

But only time the Fan is being turned on is when the A/C is on AND the temp is about 98.3 -- which is exactly the same time the fan is on for engine cooling.

Might try and grab TunerCATS again and flash it! Can't believe I didn't think about this at the time.

EDIT: It looks like 411 PCM tuning has gone Open Source via PCM Hammer and TunerPro. Gonna see if I can get it to play nicely with my AstroVan -- would be cool to get this to work as it is very inexpensive (at least compared to other tuners).
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby stent » June 10th 2021, 5:20pm

WinnieVan wrote:EDIT: It looks like 411 PCM tuning has gone Open Source via PCM Hammer and TunerPro. Gonna see if I can get it to play nicely with my AstroVan -- would be cool to get this to work as it is very inexpensive (at least compared to other tuners).


YEA WinnieVan !!!! :ty: thank you for posting about "PCM Hammer & TunerPro" - i didn't know they existed.
i have an older PC laptop sitting around that i have never really used - i will see if i can use it to base a setup off of.
here's to hoping that the non-v8 specific parts of the software will work with a V6.
do you have any recommendations for a PCM to PC interface via the OBDII port, or making a bench harness ??????? :dunce:
i'm hoping this will be something i can use like a correspondence course to understand better the inner workings of the 0411 PCM - i didn't want to spring for an EFI Live account & their hardware due to the $$$ involved.........
thanks again :bouncy: :wave:
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby WinnieVan [OP] » June 10th 2021, 6:39pm

Yeah -- it's seriously awesome software -- definitely geared towards the LS1 crowd ...

Here's a list of supported dongles -- cheapest one is like $40.. that's a good price for DIY tuning...

capcap.JPG


I'm sure EFILive and HPTuners are more fully featured - but for simple stuff like fan control, I think TunerPro should work.

Would be cool if this mod was wayy more open-sourced... as this is the *right* way to add a E-Fan IMO -- and at $40 for a dongle -- it is cheaper than cheap fan controllers.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby dcsleeper » June 10th 2021, 7:37pm

I would support tutorials and forum sub-sections for this.

I'm familiar with the concepts, but my hands on was years ago with much cruder environments. I program Raspberry Pi's if that gets me any cred.
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Re: PCM Electronic Fan Control...

Postby AstroWill » June 10th 2021, 9:41pm

WinnieVan wrote:Yeah -- it's seriously awesome software -- definitely geared towards the LS1 crowd ...

Here's a list of supported dongles -- cheapest one is like $40.. that's a good price for DIY tuning...


Would be fantastic if we can start doing it with a $40 dongle for the 96 and up vans!!!

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