Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby TALLMAN1402 » January 23rd 2018, 4:05am

This was not info I was looking for but reading through your post a good thing for my future to do list thanks
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby Huckleberry » February 3rd 2018, 7:40am

Excellent thread, and thanks to the OP!
Thinking of doing this to both my vans and my Suburban.
Anyone know if the OP's dimensions are correct for a shorty?
Fuel gauge on the '92 I just bought doesn't work.
PO's story is that she had the fuel pump replaced by
her "mechanic friend" and that's when it quit working.
Probably not hooked up right at the sending unit.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby mutanay » November 29th 2018, 4:09am

I just bought one of these door hatches. How do you secure the door once its installed? It looks like a philips screw driver would turn the lock to the right and it would latch underneath especially since there is a lock contraption underneath the door, but its almost like its glued and it wont turn. I can get the door to stay closed because nothing is moving!
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby 97cargocrawler [OP] » November 29th 2018, 6:15pm

mutanay wrote:I just bought one of these door hatches. How do you secure the door once its installed? It looks like a philips screw driver would turn the lock to the right and it would latch underneath especially since there is a lock contraption underneath the door, but its almost like its glued and it wont turn. I can get the door to stay closed because nothing is moving!


Perhaps the latch mech got painted and stuck. Mine uses a slotted driver to turn the latch. You should be able to move the latch lever by hand I would imagine. Or break out the wrench and move it. If it's painted in place I would not try using a driver to force it as the metal slot will probably tweak.

I used aluminum pop rivets to secure the hatch. But use whatever hardware you chose I spose (sheet metal screw, industrial adhesive..).
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby barriep » June 23rd 2020, 1:29am

Get tips! For someone with a randomly wild gas gauge needle and about to install a new nice coin floor should I bother to do this now or wait until I actually need a new pump? I have a 01' awd cargo with 114K
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 23rd 2020, 2:24am

barriep wrote:Get tips! For someone with a randomly wild gas gauge needle and about to install a new nice coin floor should I bother to do this now or wait until I actually need a new pump? I have a 01' awd cargo with 114K


I just did mine because it was whining occasionally, the old style Delco harnesses are known to overheat and melt wires when they work hard (I had a feeling that a Delco unit was in there), and it's better to do it now than to do it halfway across the state on the grapevine.

Dropping the tank actually seems like the safer route to me because if I cut a hole and Pierce the tank, I'm pretty much 100% screwed, and I will have to drop the tank anyways and patch the hole if I'm lucky, then limp it around until I wait for a new tank or find one at the JY.

My tank was held up REALLY weird, rigged as all getout (almost to unsafe levels), and one bolt was incredibly hard to get on/off, but it was strangely not stripped, probably just old. Used the trick of tightening and loosening in small increments (really glad i watched a video on removing exhaust manifold bolts) with anti-sieze, and I managed to get that one bolt off/on without snapping it or stripping the hole, and I managed to get all of them torqued down to proper spec and snugged good.
Nice new denso unit with updated wiring harness. Should be in there for the rest of the life of the van, But if there is a next time, I know which ones to loosen and which ones to remove when/if I do it again.
Would have been a great time to cut a nice hole and make a hatch but I was in a hurry.
Deleted the shield so that in the future I could just cut a hole and make a hatch easily.

Imagine that in an emergency situation!

Anyways, my point is that I, personally, would replace it and cut a really nice access hole while the tank is dropped because these things do go out at some point.
So if you have a chance to do it at all, or if you're having doubts, I would do it while you have the chance to do it well.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby MechBob » June 23rd 2020, 6:57am

Your tank being held up "really weird" confuses me, pictures would be nice.As far as cutting into the tank, from above, might only happen if using a sawsall, or something with a long blade,most people are not that dumb.Using a cutoff wheel,blade, and in case there is the chance of a leak, spraying down the tank,with a water hose, reduces the factor of a fire almost to 0.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 23rd 2020, 7:28pm

MechBob wrote:Your tank being held up "really weird" confuses me, pictures would be nice.As far as cutting into the tank, from above, might only happen if using a sawsall, or something with a long blade,most people are not that dumb.Using a cutoff wheel,blade, and in case there is the chance of a leak, spraying down the tank,with a water hose, reduces the factor of a fire almost to 0.


Should have taken pics while I was under there, but I was in mind if a hurry so I just snapped pics if the snap ring which I'll share. Some of these fuel pumps are held on by a detent, and others a snap ring. It now makes sense why they make fuel pumps specifically for 97-99 vans. Was kind of confused by that because they look exactly the same.

I'm considering getting a Delco rebuild kit for the pump I removed so that I have a VERY nice backup (though without the updated harness).


anyways, by "really weird" I meant that one of the straps was bent EXTREMELY, and on the driver side, the bolts had nuts on them in between the strap and the chassis!
By extremely, i mean that it looked like someone just grabbed it and yanked as hard as they could to get it out of the way.
Luckily, ice gone through this van extensively, and that's the only part that looked crazy.
Everything else had no brackets/harnesses missing or wiring issues like my 05 had.

That seems extremely unsafe for several reasons.

1. The bolts are extremely long (but actual attachment points very short) for a reason, and I think that it is so that in the event that they vibrate loose for some reason, there is a LOT of leeway for them to get to the point that they are going to fall off.
Putting anything between that length and the strap is dangerous.

2. Having some of the length of the bolt just hanging out, on something that carries 25+ gallons of a volatile liquid is dangerous because it creates a sheer point or breaking fuse where there wasn't one before. I would think that those strap ends need to be flush against the chassis so that the sheer point no longer exists .

I mean, it was obviously in there for a while, and sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, but I managed to get them flush and torqued to manufacture spec, so I have no idea why they were in there.


And yes, now that I know where everything is in this van, and I know that the top of the tank is aluminum, I'll probably cut a hatch next time if it happens within 50k miles.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby Leeann_93 » June 23rd 2020, 10:52pm

You know that the driver's side bolts are the proper looseness from the factory and you don't touch them, right?

You remove the driveshaft-side bolts and rotate the straps, unless some idiot tightened the driver's side bolts, in which case you loosen them just enough to rotate the straps out of the way.
You never remove the straps unless you're replacing them.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 23rd 2020, 11:27pm

Leeann_93 wrote:You know that the driver's side bolts are the proper looseness from the factory and you don't touch them, right?

You remove the driveshaft-side bolts and rotate the straps, unless some idiot tightened the driver's side bolts, in which case you loosen them just enough to rotate the straps out of the way.
You never remove the straps unless you're replacing them.


Service manual says to remove them entirely, but I used the strap rotating trick to get them out of the way.
Are you saying that the driver's side bolts were meant to be loose from the get go?
I tightened everything down to manufacturer spec.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby Leeann_93 » June 23rd 2020, 11:42pm

gman wrote:
Leeann_93 wrote:You know that the driver's side bolts are the proper looseness from the factory and you don't touch them, right?

You remove the driveshaft-side bolts and rotate the straps, unless some idiot tightened the driver's side bolts, in which case you loosen them just enough to rotate the straps out of the way.
You never remove the straps unless you're replacing them.


Service manual says to remove them entirely, but I used the strap rotating trick to get them out of the way.
Are you saying that the driver's side bolts were meant to be loose from the get go?
I tightened everything down to manufacturer spec.



Yes, I am. They are just loose enough to rotate. The driveshaft-side bolts are meant to remove.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 24th 2020, 6:19am

Leeann_93 wrote:
gman wrote:
Leeann_93 wrote:You know that the driver's side bolts are the proper looseness from the factory and you don't touch them, right?

You remove the driveshaft-side bolts and rotate the straps, unless some idiot tightened the driver's side bolts, in which case you loosen them just enough to rotate the straps out of the way.
You never remove the straps unless you're replacing them.


Service manual says to remove them entirely, but I used the strap rotating trick to get them out of the way.
Are you saying that the driver's side bolts were meant to be loose from the get go?
I tightened everything down to manufacturer spec.



Yes, I am. They are just loose enough to rotate. The driveshaft-side bolts are meant to remove.


service manual says that in the end, the "jam nuts" go to 26 ft. lbs. And everything in the end tightens to 26 ft. lbs, but the outboard bolts go to 9ft. lbs before tightening the outboard to 26 ft. lbs?
I just went by fastener spec.
Super confusing to me, and I don't know why they would do it like that when the manual says to remove the bolts entirely to do an r&r.

Looked super rigged to me in comparison to the 05.
Especially when compounded with the extremely bent strap.
It's obviously had a fuel pump change, but no idea when it was done.
I was under the impression that it was done after it sat, but it looks way older than that.
I can't go against what the manufacturer who made the car says, but that seems super dangerous to me.
But hey, not complaints of dropped tanks since the van was made.

I don't have a set of crows foot wrenches anyways, so there was no way that I was going to tighten those down to spec.
So doing it the way I did was the only option other than putting the bolts in and just going "really tight" with a box wrench.

Manual says that overtightening can put pressure on the float which can give an inaccurate fuel reading, but I didn't notice that since I was on red the other day on accident, and the van was still running. I misgauged the uphill gas mileage lol (it's pretty bad).

And yes, everything was tightened down to ungodly torque levels.
So much so, that I considered using a breaker bar, but thought not to out of fear of snapping a bolt/stripping the weld nut and being completely screwed.
Could have also been old *** van.
Most people don't buy the service manual, so at least it was on tight enough to make me think that they considered the weight of the tank when doing so.
It's also overcomplicated for a lot of things like telling you to pull the wheel to replace a switch.

Also, the straps weren't bending the tank at all when I looked (and I did check).
Well, I saved those nuts so they'll go back in someday, but because that one bolt was so bad, I don't think I'll completely remove it again without a tap and new bolt at the ready.

No idea what could cause a bolt to still go in and out without signs of stripping but take literally 35 ft. Lbs of torque to move every 1/4" (both in and out) until it reached the last few threads where it acted like a normal bolt.
I had to use the "in and out" exhaust manifold trick with copious amounts of anti-sieze to get them both off and on.
It will loosen and tighten easily enough to rotate it at that last part, so if it ever changes owners I'll tell them about that, but I deleted the shield to make it easier to cut a hole and make a hatch anyways.

I'll keep an eye on my fuel guage for accuracy, and if it's fine (haven't seen any problems yet) then I'll probably just leave it alone since it's definitely not more dangerous without the nuts in there, and that's how the next generations of Astros did it.

I really wish that I wasnt in such a huge rush literally everytime I work on the van.
I always have worse than just "get it done!" when doing so. It's so compounded with other fears.

The other day I sprayed my IAC valve with carb cleaner and it ruined it, but the manual says how to clean the TB on an entirely different page dedicated to the TB, which I didnt find out later until I read the manual for fun.

Next time, I'm going to plan ahead with the manual when I have time and then rush through the procedure with that information.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby sixsix » June 24th 2020, 3:36pm

gman wrote: ... service manual says that in the end, the "jam nuts" go to 26 ft. lbs. And everything in the end tightens to 26 ft. lbs, but the outboard bolts go to 9ft. lbs before tightening the outboard to 26 ft. lbs?
I just went by fastener spec.
Super confusing to me, and I don't know why they would do it like that when the manual says to remove the bolts entirely to do an r&r.

Looked super rigged to me in comparison to the 05.
Especially when compounded with the extremely bent strap.
It's obviously had a fuel pump change, but no idea when it was done.
I was under the impression that it was done after it sat, but it looks way older than that.
I can't go against what the manufacturer who made the car says, but that seems super dangerous to me.
But hey, not complaints of dropped tanks since the van was made.

I don't have a set of crows foot wrenches anyways, so there was no way that I was going to tighten those down to spec.
So doing it the way I did was the only option other than putting the bolts in and just going "really tight" with a box wrench.

Manual says that overtightening can put pressure on the float which can give an inaccurate fuel reading, but I didn't notice that since I was on red the other day on accident, and the van was still running. I misgauged the uphill gas mileage lol (it's pretty bad).

And yes, everything was tightened down to ungodly torque levels.
So much so, that I considered using a breaker bar, but thought not to out of fear of snapping a bolt/stripping the weld nut and being completely screwed.
Could have also been old *** van.
Most people don't buy the service manual, so at least it was on tight enough to make me think that they considered the weight of the tank when doing so.
It's also overcomplicated for a lot of things like telling you to pull the wheel to replace a switch.

Also, the straps weren't bending the tank at all when I looked (and I did check).
Well, I saved those nuts so they'll go back in someday, but because that one bolt was so bad, I don't think I'll completely remove it again without a tap and new bolt at the ready.

No idea what could cause a bolt to still go in and out without signs of stripping but take literally 35 ft. Lbs of torque to move every 1/4" (both in and out) until it reached the last few threads where it acted like a normal bolt.
I had to use the "in and out" exhaust manifold trick with copious amounts of anti-sieze to get them both off and on.
It will loosen and tighten easily enough to rotate it at that last part, so if it ever changes owners I'll tell them about that, but I deleted the shield to make it easier to cut a hole and make a hatch anyways.

I'll keep an eye on my fuel guage for accuracy, and if it's fine (haven't seen any problems yet) then I'll probably just leave it alone since it's definitely not more dangerous without the nuts in there, and that's how the next generations of Astros did it.

I really wish that I wasnt in such a huge rush literally everytime I work on the van.
I always have worse than just "get it done!" when doing so. It's so compounded with other fears.

The other day I sprayed my IAC valve with carb cleaner and it ruined it, but the manual says how to clean the TB on an entirely different page dedicated to the TB, which I didnt find out later until I read the manual for fun.

Next time, I'm going to plan ahead with the manual when I have time and then rush through the procedure with that information.



Wow...just wow...
Well, after all... what would Banacek say ?... "Shaun King / BLM" are wanting to start taking down Religious / White Jesus / European Mother depictions in Churches - he feels that they were created as RACIST OPPRESSION & PROPAGANDA...



.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby Leeann_93 » June 24th 2020, 10:38pm

gman wrote:Manual says that overtightening can put pressure on the float which can give an inaccurate fuel reading, but I didn't notice that since I was on red the other day on accident, and the van was still running. I misgauged the uphill gas mileage lol (it's pretty bad).




Wait....what???? Overtightening straps has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with float level inside the tank.

Pumps are secured to the tank with a lock ring; there's nothing to screw down that could screw up the fuel level reading.





PS: I didn't read anything else in your post. Way too much.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 26th 2020, 1:26am

It says in a big section that failure to tighten to spec can sort of "crush" the tank, and push up on the float arm.
Even after removing the nuts, I didn't notice anything, so it should be fine.
I was also on red (something that I avoid but happened on accident this time), and the van was still running so it's probably fine.

I have the slight rapidly moving oscillating gauage problem anyways (both before and after pump replacement) so it's not like it's accurate to the dit anywyays, and if I don't have gross problems like seeing a quarter tank when I'm empty, I'm not super worried about it.
I always carry a gas can.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby 97cargocrawler [OP] » June 27th 2020, 5:39am

Straps too tight on the corner edges of the tank could cause the middle to bulge up. The pump has that long springy section that touches the floor of the tank. It's feasible it could mess with the float.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby gman » June 30th 2020, 1:06am

Yeah. It's probably possible in theory.
I've learned to both take the advice of people that have been screwing with these vans for years, along with the service manual.
You won't find the cooler delete in the manual, and you also won't find the custom fab that I see on here all the time in the manual.
I'm learning that there are also a lot of tricks that can make things go faster, just last for longer, or just make the van experience better that people have already figured out.

Sometimes the manual is overkill, other times if you follow it, you'll have the best possible repair.
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Re: Fuel Pump Floor Cutout Location

Postby sixsix » Yesterday, 7:13pm

Hey gman, what happened to your Avatar? Or maybe you never even ever had one.

I was just looking up a few words and it was one and there it was - tough to get and went to Dogpile because G00gle was messing it up - the search results were only about some movie Sigourney Weaver was in. She was married to a high end movie / studio mogul.

Avatar derives from a Sanskrit word meaning "descent," and when it first appeared in English in the late 18th century, it referred to the descent of a deity to the earth—typically, the incarnation in earthly form of Vishnu or another Hindu deity. It later came to refer to any incarnation in human form, and then to any embodiment (such as that of a concept or philosophy), whether or not in the form of a person. In the age of technology, avatar has developed another sense—it can now be used for the image that a person chooses as his or her "embodiment" in an electronic medium.

Examples of avatar in a Sentence
She has come to be regarded as an avatar of charity and concern for the poor.
She chose a penguin as her personal avatar in the chat room.
Recent Examples on the Web
In other words, via expressions, the avatar has to feel human enough that there is something at stake.
— Steven Levy, Wired, "Videoconferencing Needs to Climb Out of the Uncanny Valley," 18 June 2020
While playing the game, children steer an avatar through a course dotted with obstacles, collecting targets to earn rewards.

I learned something cool today... thanks, gman !!

So what's new with your van?
Well, after all... what would Banacek say ?... "Shaun King / BLM" are wanting to start taking down Religious / White Jesus / European Mother depictions in Churches - he feels that they were created as RACIST OPPRESSION & PROPAGANDA...



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sixsix
Firing on 8 Cylinders (L4)
Firing on 8 Cylinders (L4)
Years of Membership: sixsix has been a member for 6 full yearssixsix has been a member for 6 full yearssixsix has been a member for 6 full yearssixsix has been a member for 6 full yearssixsix has been a member for 6 full yearssixsix has been a member for 6 full years
Posts: 3981
Topics: 36
Images: 1208
Joined: May 2014
Location: Edgewood, Northern Ky.
Gender: Male
Alias (AKA): Mike
Van Model Year: 1992
Van Make/Model: Chevrolet Astro
Extra Info: LT W CPI - RWD 200K

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