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Dead batteries and jumpstarters

3K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  gordo999 
#1 ·
Went out to my van tonight, turned the ignition, and nothing. First time since I bought the van over 10 years ago.

The battery is new (2 months old) and I called the auto club (BCAA). The guy came out and checked the cells with a hydrometer and they were showing a reduced charge but all were identical in the reading. He ruled out a faulty battery.

He used a booster on it and when it started we noticed some idiot had left an interior light on. :mrgreen:

He recommended I get a trickle charger. I went searching for a Walmart special and discovered that I have become technically challenged, even though I am an electrician, technician, computer expert. Apparently the new kid on the block is a jumpstarter but the assortment of different types is mind boggling.

Walmart does have trickle chargers, one a Duracell 6 amp charger they claim is no longer available. I would appreciate some pros and cons with regard to which way I should go.

The booster the auto club guy used was impressive but apparently you need at least some juice left in the battery. I had about 7 volts left but who knows how many amps it could deliver in that state.

One of the jumpstarters I saw does everything but make coffee. It has a 400 watt inverter as well as a heavy duty air compressor. Some of them claim to deliver up to 1400 amps starting current.

Being an electrician, one of the first things I learned is that you can't get something for nothing. Therefore, the jumpstarters likely have an expensive battery in them that will likely burn out one day. Of course, for $100 - $150 it's equivalent to carrying a spare battery around that can blow up tires and charge your cell phone.
 
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#2 ·
I"m quite sure you're right about "Can't get something for nothing". There are even some of those jump starters that are nothing more than 9 D cells that you plug into your cig lighter. I think(?) the idea is you can get the car battery to develop at least a surface charge if it's not too DOA already.

I'm also pretty sure that if your battery dipped down to 7v, it's charred bread.

Trickle chargers - Fire trucks and ambulances use them when they're in quarters to keep their batteries topped off. So one would have to guess that even with several batteries, monster or multiple alternators and whatever technology they can come up with to charge the batteries while those trucks operate, nothing beats just plain plugging the thing in when it's parked.

During the summer I plug my van into a Schumacher charger when it sits for more than just a couple days. The difference is dramatic when I go to start it and it's been on trickle vs when it's just sat naked for a day or two.

Lump
 
#3 ·
Lumpy said:
Trickle chargers - ... nothing beats just plain plugging the thing in when it's parked.
Lump
I bought one of these, for my dirtbike. Bought a second conector for the project van. Works like a perfect slow trickle charger. Bought it at my LAPs for ~$40 or ~$50. The one I have charges at .75 amps, but when the battery is low or full. It does more then enough work for me. IF the battery was dead like yours, I would say give it a full day.
http://www.amazon.com/Deltran-Battery-T ... B00068XCQU
http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-08 ... ery+tender

When I worked at a small shop, and had to jump somebody for the same reason. I would tell them to drive it for 10 minutes on the freeway. 5 mins one way, 5 minutes back(while on the freeway). All the customers would have no problems starting it again. Told me, all of them had good alternators and batts...

Again, this is what I did. Hope it helps,
~Junior
 
#4 ·
Lumpy said:
I'm also pretty sure that if your battery dipped down to 7v, it's charred bread.
I am inclined to agree. However, it's starting up like a charm after the boost. I'll see if it still starts in the morning.

An encouraging sign was how well it fired up with the booster even though it had only 7 volts across the posts. Apparently a booster wont work if the dead battery voltage is too low. I may need more than a trickle charge to get the battery back to normal, however.

I am going to buy a hydrometer and monitor it while it is charged. If it maintains a high reading on all cells, I'll keep it. Otherwise the warranty extends for quite some time yet.

That does not guarantee that sulphation or some other damage has not happened to the plates in the battery.

Lumpy said:
During the summer I plug my van into a Schumacher charger when it sits for more than just a couple days.
I have seen that name at Walmart and I'll check it out. Thanks Lump.
 
#5 ·
jrsride2002 said:
Again, this is what I did. Hope it helps, ~Junior
Appreciate the input.

I am trying to get the cobwebs out. Back in the day when I had my little trickle charger hanging on the garage wall, I used it many a time. However, I recall that for seriously discharged batteries, you need to use a higher current charger. Some are automated to charge at a certain current for a while then a lower current later.

The current as I recall on a larger charger was in the 20 to 30 amp range. Apparently you need that high of a current alter the chemistry of the battery plates...or something like that. The trickle current is not enough.

Here's an article that touches on some charging basics:

http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html

The article claims the current used is not critical as long as you don't over-charge. If you do, the electrolyte starts to boil off. If it gets below the top of the plates, some serious damage can occur.

A trickle charger should be OK but it would be better to spend more and get a charging unit that uses modern electronics to control the charge time and current level.

Here's a link to the Duracell 12 volt lead-acid chargers.

http://www.duracellpower.com/battery-chargers/battery-chargers/6-12-25-amp-battery-chargers.aspx
 
#6 ·
There's guys on YourTub putting all sorts of things into batteries to revive them. Epsom salts, vinegar, swimming pool acid, coca cola, limburger and onions, Dr Pepper.

That and zap it with a stick welder or slam the side with a sledge hammer.

Weird soooot Maynard.

Lump
 
#9 ·
Hey, it is fer sure that batts don't last forever...get that concept inside yer brain bucket

and figure gas don't last, oil don't last, some parts don't last, mebby batts need to be changed

when they get old too. Further, if you have a drain on the batt that makes starting the next

morning difficult or impossible, then change into troubleshooting mode and find the

bugger, rather than use a bandaid.

Just a concept to ponder, youse guys...

Uncle Bob
 
#10 ·
You said the BCAA service tech noted only 7v across the posts.....BUT....that was before you discovered the interior light on, right? I'm thinking that with the draw from that light you weren't getting an accurate "Battery" voltage and you should probably treat that "reading" as anectdotal, NOT empirical. Or, in English,your battery voltage was probably actually a bit higher than the 7v the BCAA guy read off.
-Mike-
 
#11 ·
My battery has a tough life. My engle refrigerator runs all the time while I am on road trips... I will install a second "house" battery some day, but for the last few trips back and forth across the country it has worked fine.

The trouble with trickle chargers is that you have to remember to hook them up....

Two options you might want to look into, one is a small solar panel on the dash... I have a 12" square 12w panel that is about the smallest that will contribute anything... But it helps.

Harbor Freight has a 12" x 36" panel they are calling 15w here.

http://t.harborfreight.com/15-watt-12-v ... gle.com%2F

I know redirects from this site rarely work, so just google harbor freight 15w solar.

Mount it on your dash with some Velcro and forget it. Sure, only charges 8 hours a day( if you are lucky) but it has worked for me so far.

I also switched my lights to LEDs, so that helps.

Boosters.

As a "plan b" I keep a basic 600w battery booster in my Thule carrier. It has started my van on two occasions. Once when I ran my engle too long (3 overcast days while camping)... And once when I left my reading light on before I changed over to LEDs.

I agree with you that most rechargeable batteries are going to die, mine is about 4 years old and has held up well. Good $69 investment, and helps me be self sufficient when I mess up and overdraw my amp account.

Plus, it is a lot easier then using cables to offer a jump to someone else....
 
#12 ·
I have the Battery Tender Plus and use it on the van when I'm away for 10 days or more, or if the van isn't getting out of the garage much. Twice in 4 years I had various medical issues and the van didn't use a tank of gas every 3-4 months. The battery got too low from sitting, so I wired a set of leads for the Battery Tender under the hood. Battery Tender has accessory leads that you can wire on to your battery posts and run the polarized plug out through the grill. Makes it a snap to plug in the van. Just make sure to put a brightly colored flag of some kind on the wires coming from the charger so you remember to unplug it before pulling away.

Battery Tender and Scumacher both have a waterproof unit that mounts under the hood and you just run an extension cord to the AC plug coming out through the grill. I didn't opt for that one so that I could also use the Battery Tender on other vehicles, but if I had a vehicle that needed a constant boost, I would probably go that route.

I also have a Schumacher jump pack. It uses a large 12 volt UPS battery which runs 40 to 50 dollars every few years to replace. (Watch for an EBay deal on the batteries.) I have used the jump pack on more neighbor cars than my own.

The newest jump packs are small lithium batteries that fit in a glove box.You can find them on Amazon from about $ 79.00 and up.

Occasionally you can find a deal on a Kussmaul Auto Eject on EBay. These are the charging units used on emergency vehicles, and require either a 20 or 30 Amp circuit. You wire the unit in and it auto-ejects the extension cord from the vehicle when you start the engine. Only problem is they get bid up pretty high when they are available.

Hope this info helps.
 
#14 ·
chevymaher said:
Slamming the battery actually works, dropping them is what I heard to do. It breaks the deposits in the battery loose. Exposing the lead plates to the acid again.
I wouldn't want to to slam or drop them too hard.

I've heard that works in cases where residue from the plates collects in between them and tends to create high resistance paths between plates, which is not good. Jarring the battery might break them loose.

Of course, by that point you are likely in need of a new battery.
 
#15 ·
Sailing_Faith said:
My battery has a tough life. My engle refrigerator runs all the time while I am on road trips... I will install a second "house" battery some day, but for the last few trips back and forth across the country it has worked fine.
You might try installing a high output alternator. Some of them supply twice the charging current of a conventional unit. Conventional alternators are designed to output enough current to maintain the battery and other electrical power, plus a fudge factor. They don't really allow for the addition of refrigerators, etc.

The battery is the basic source of power for starting and for running electric fuel pumps, ignition, etc. plus any accessories, while in transit. An alternator was not designed to run vehicle electrics on it's own. However, if you load down your system beyond what the electrical design calls for, the alternator will start supplying that current....till it overloads and blows.

That's less likely to happen with a high output alternator.

Also, consider the regulator, which in many vehicles is external to the alternator and built into the power control unit. If the alternator does not have it's own built-in regulator, the solid state unit has to deal with it. That makes me nervous if the power demand on the electrical system is increased significantly. I am sure the vehicle designers did not build a large leeway for current regulation into a solid state unit.

If you buy a high output alternator with it's own built-in or externally mounted regulator, you may have to bypass the regulator in the power control unit.

Sailing_Faith said:
Two options you might want to look into, one is a small solar panel on the dash
I live in a rainforest, where we are lucky to see the sun during summer. :D

Sailing_Faith said:
I know redirects from this site rarely work, so just google harbor freight 15w solar.
Have you tried inserting the URL into your post, highlighting it, and clicking on the URL tab at the top of the editing page? It will automatically put URL brackets around the highlighted text.

Sailing_Faith said:
As a "plan b" I keep a basic 600w battery booster in my Thule carrier
I am definitely looking into that. Unfortunately none of them seem to have a trickle charge capability.
 
#16 ·
Astrofarian said:
You said the BCAA service tech noted only 7v across the posts.....BUT....that was before you discovered the interior light on, right?
It wasn't the BCAA guy, it was me who measured the 7 volts (I'm an electrician). I did show the reading to him, which interested him only because he thought his booster pack might work with the 7 volts, which it did. With the booster, it booted straight up and I think that was because the battery was only 2 months old and had a good recovery available.

Actually, I had removed the +ve battery terminal before measuring the 7 volts, so the reading was right across the battery with no load. I took a resistance reading from the disconnected +ve terminal to ground and saw no resistance, so I incorrectly presumed there was no current draw on the battery. On the lowest scale on my DVM resistance scale there is a beeper which is very sensitive. It did not beep at all and the meter showed infinite resistance.

There was a question mark, however, since after removing the +ve terminal, the battery voltage started to rise. That is an indication that something was holding it down. For some reason, the resistance in the dome light was not registering on a low resistance scale on my DVM. That might happen if it doesn't have a resistive filament.

I did notice on a higher scale that the resistance reading was slowing climbing toward 20K and that indicates a capacitor charging. I doubt if a dome light would read a resistance that high.
 
#17 ·
MrBob said:
I used Battery Tenders on all my motorcycles over the winter before I developed enough sense to get out of Minnesota.
Walmart has one and I'll check it out.

I can't imagine riding a bike in a Minnesota winter.

I lived in Regina, Canada for a year and know what you mean about Minnesota. Nothing like -40 with a wind blowing. It hit -50 C one day while I was back visiting friends in late December but the sun was out with no wind and it didn't seem half bad. Mind you, I had to take my car battery into the house at night since my car had no block heater.

Replacing the oil with synthetic and taking the battery in every night solved starting problems. The old beast fired up no problem with the synthetic and a warm battery. If I took the car anywhere I had to be careful not to leave it sitting too long.
 
#18 ·
gordo999 said:
...I did notice on a higher scale that the resistance reading was slowing climbing toward 20K and that indicates a capacitor charging. I doubt if a dome light would read a resistance that high.
:rockon: Capacitance.
Cars are full of capacitance. Think about all those bulb sockets, fuse sockets, any place where there's two conductors separated by a space. That space fills with air, oil, oxidation, bug poop etc and that's pretty much the definition of a capacitor - two conductive materials separated by bug poop. Capacitors filter AC and block DC. That's why we're able to see such dramatic changes when we do simple stuff like "I unplugged the fuse and plugged it back in and my vibrator worked at full speed again". We're cleaning out the dielectric material. Reducing the capacitance.

We've even got some AC voltages (or sometimes pulsating DC voltages) in cars. VSS, audio, video, RF and wireless, the alternator itself, some signal lines. Capacitance (BPF - the Bug Poop Factor) in AC circuits causes reactance - opposition to current flow due to capacitance or inductance. Essentially resistance in AC circuits.

Clean your bug poop. Your car's electrical system will thank you for it.

Lump
 
#19 ·
There should be a ground bolt somewhere on the body that leads to the battery-close. Pull that sucker and watch how much it sparks when the key is off...mine did a bit. So, I guess there is a pretty awesome parasitic drain on my van. I solved this by shoving the largest possible battery in there. To do this, I pulled the compute out and literally shoved it in with a giant screw driver. Man that computer is in a dumb place. Should be under the seat where it isn't being baked. Oh well.

Still...it should take weeks for your battery to get to the point it won't start the van.
 
#20 ·
I don't drive my van every day and don't have a garage, so I keep an HF solar panel plugged in and on the dash. Works great.

My uncle had a Battery Tender trickle charger plugged into my grandmother's car when I inherited it because she hadn't driven it in over a year. The battery was in perfect shape despite being 5 years old; that thing maintained the battery perfectly.
 
#21 ·
Meterpig said:
There should be a ground bolt somewhere on the body that leads to the battery-close. Pull that sucker and watch how much it sparks when the key is off...mine did a bit. So, I guess there is a pretty awesome parasitic drain on my van.
On newer vehicles, there is more electronics that needs to be maintained between starts while the ignition switch is off. I note yours is a 2002 and I don't think the heavier duty ignition-off drainage began till about 2005. Even at that, the ignition-off drainage is step-wise, being heavier right after the ignition is turned off and tapering off to around 50 to 80 milliamps.

Even with the ignition switch off, that's why you see some sparking when you disconnect either battery terminal.

Another cause of drainage is faulty diodes in the alternator. Diodes normally only leak millionths of an amp in the reverse direction, but faulty diodes can leak both ways.

A test for that is to fire up the vehicle and test across the battery terminals using a DVM on the AC (alternating current) scale. Normally you would use the DC (direct current) scale set for 20 volts or so. Use the 20 volt range on the AC scale and you should see nothing. If you are getting an AC reading it could be leakage from the alternator diodes.

If you have a DVM with a true RMS scale, you may be able to figure out how much leakage is happening. Also, if you are noticing AC on the meter, the DC will likely be down as well.

According to my Haynes manual, for the 1994 and later Safari/Astro, the red terminal on the alternator is connected straight to the battery positive terminal via the starter cable terminal. The other lead on the alternator marked 'generator' goes to the idiot lights or the battery gauge. The alternator case is grounded, therefore the charging current is connected straight to the battery through the diodes.

Obviously, the alternator shown in the Haynes manual has a built in voltage regulator since none is shown externally. Depending on the regulator type, it's a device that monitors the output voltage of the alternator and adjust the current through the rotor coil. The current supplying the rotor coil is fed via slip rings and brushes and delivered via the ignition switch and a transistor in the regulator.

The diodes are on the stator coil, which is stationary, and the rotor coil turns inside it.

The rotor acts as a magnet with a north and south pole and as it turns inside the stator, it induces an alternating current in it. The diodes rectify the alternating current to a pulsating DC.

The alternator uses a 3-phase stator. That means the stator output voltages overlap, as do the DC pulsation produced by the diodes. Still, the pulsations are undesirable and the regulator smooths them till the output voltage is pretty well DC.

If a diode leaks, that means the battery is leaking to ground through the diode. From reading the schematic, however, I would think two diodes would have to leak.

There is a fusible link in series with the alternator in case things get out of hand.
 
#22 ·
Lumpy said:
We've even got some AC voltages (or sometimes pulsating DC voltages) in cars. VSS, audio, video, RF and wireless, the alternator itself, some signal lines. Capacitance (BPF - the Bug Poop Factor) in AC circuits causes reactance - opposition to current flow due to capacitance or inductance. Essentially resistance in AC circuits.

Clean your bug poop. Your car's electrical system will thank you for it.Lump
Sorry Lumpy, I missed your commentary on bug poop between two conductors. I have submitted it to the electrical engineering department at my local university, which still teaches that current flows from positive to negative. :lol:

Speaking of capacitors and capacitive reactance and all that good stuff, I have been helping a buddy trace a broken Loomex run (is it Romex in the States??) behind drywall. We have no idea where it picks up power so we can check for bad connections. I am endeavoring to send a 1 Khz tone down the cable in hopes of tracing it with an inductive pickup.

I mention this because it may be applicable to tracing broken cables in a Safari/Astro. The tone generator generates a square wave train at 1 Khz but square waves contain all frequencies and will generate high frequency harmonics that can be picked up with an inductive pick up.

Normally, this device is used to trace data cables. You connect the tone generator to a pair of wires in a cable bundle and start tracing along it with an inductive pickup. The pickup detects high frequency harmonics from the square wave pulses. Normally, the technique is used for identifying wire pairs at the other end, or in a box somewhere, but you can also trace till the tone disappears and you can find your break.

You have to be careful at times since high frequency harmonics can be inductively coupled to adjacent conductors running in parallel. You get used to the difference in intensity between the direct and coupled signals, however.

I am using it on a black-white pair in a Loomex/Romex cable. There are devices made to do that a lot better but they cost around $500. One problem I could encounter is the power suddenly coming back on and smoking my tone generator. So, I am looking for a way to connect it so I don't blow it to smithereens should there be a bad connection that suddenly makes contact again.

I could use a 100,000 ohm resistor in series with the tone generator, which would limit current from a 200 volts AC source to less than 10 milliamps. That may cut my tone generator signal to an inaudible level. That's where your capacitive reactance may come in handy.

I need a NON-electrolytic capacitor with the proper voltage rating (usually one rated for 600 volts), in series with the tone generator, which produces an equivalent resistance to AC of about 100,000 ohms.

Whereas the capacitor produces 100,000 ohms to 60 hz power, it will pass the much higher harmonics found in square waves with low resistance.

It's amazing what a bit of bug poop will do between conductive plates.
 
#23 ·
gordo999 said:
He (the auto club guy from BCAA) recommended I get a trickle charger..
An update on the condition of my battery after having run it down to under 7 volts by stupidly leaving the dome lights on for a couple of days. Normally I check them religiously after locking the doors. I don't go into the house till they turn off. Somehow I missed it this time. Either that or I have developed a wonky turn-off circuit.

Still haven't got a trickle charger. Shopped around but was not overly impressed with the products. My old trickle charger came in a vented steel case and these new ones are made of plastic, looking far too fragile to handle the power they claim.

Also meant to pick up a hydrometer to check the charge via the battery acid. Have not found one yet. You know what's going to happen next...right??? I'll get caught with a flat battery.

The auto club guy told me hydrometers are good for verifying a battery. If all cells read pretty well the same on the hydrometer it's unlikely to be a bad battery cell. In my case, even though the terminal voltage was below 7 volts, the cells all tested the same with the hydrometer.

He also told me my Energizer Maxx Walmart special is a good battery. I was having doubt when it went flat but he assured me it was a good quality battery. I had bought another one after having run on my original from Walmart for 9 years. It was still starting the Safari fine when I traded it in.

Everstart is made by Johnson Controls and I remember that name from having worked in the electrical industry. I have no interest in pushing their products, I have just had good experience with the product and thought I'd add my two-bits worth.

Anyway, I read somewhere that a battery reading 12.66 volts or higher is indicating a full charge. I guess they get that from each cell being rated at 2.1 volts and 6 cells x 2.1 volts/cell = 12.66 volts, or there abouts.

My battery is only a couple of months old.

I have measured my battery several times after allowing it to sit overnight and the voltage across the terminals is reading higher than 12.66 volts...about 12.8 volts. That's without a charge and charging only from the alternator.

At first, the alternator/battery gauge was reading upwards of 16 volts while the motor was running but now it's settling back to 14+ volts.

I have also read that if you get to a discharged battery soon enough, and it is in good condition, it will recover without issues related to sulphation (sulfation??). Soon enough means within a couple of days.
 
#24 ·
I had two batteries in the garage for whatever project came up and both developed weak cells and would not turn my engine more then two revolutions. I took both cleaned them up added distilled water dropped a rag over the top and dropped them to the concrete floor one at a time. put them both on my battery charger (one at a time) and now they like new. Now this is a temporary fix as eventually I will need a battery for my van and one of these older batteries will be used as a core to buy a new battery for my Astro but for now one is for the e fan in my garage window and the other is to start my van while working on it.
 
#25 ·
markmitch said:
I took both cleaned them up added distilled water dropped a rag over the top and dropped them to the concrete floor one at a time.
Hope you did not drop them from too high a height. :D Those cases can crack.

Dropping them likely loosened up crud that was causing a high resistance leak between plates in the cells. Also, it may have dropped off scale that was preventing electrolytic action. However, that crud from the plates is bound to build up at the bottom of the plates causing high resistance conditions between plates at the base.

As you say, it's likely a temporary fix. The problem with worn batteries is deposits left on the plates due to the electrolytic action. I have heard a heavy charge cycling can remove some of it but after a while it's bound to be a losing proposition.

It seems to me in the old days you could buy an electrolyte topper-upper. I don't like messing with sulfuric acid, however. Have burned holes in clothing too often.

Adding just distilled water will dilute the electrolyte.
 
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