electrolysis/corrosion

electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 1st 2020, 1:03am

2001 Safari cargovan RWD

I presume this is an electrical problem related to electrolysis. It right at the battery by the large connector to the left of the battery looking from front of van.

Any ideas as to the cause and whether it could create bad grounds?

corrosion 001.JPG


corrosion 002.JPG


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corrosion 004.JPG


corrosion 005.JPG


corrosion 006.JPG
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby Leeann_93 » October 1st 2020, 1:40am

Sure it’s not baking soda left over from cleaning a battery spill?
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby sixsix » October 1st 2020, 3:03am

Man after my own Heart - 6 Photos ( nice ones, too, I add ) of Baking Soda.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
.

Well, after all... what would Banacek say ?... “Everything needs to change except the asshole culture and stupid way of life of the avg. antifa, BLM follower - slobs, cowards, killers w/o any thought that they, IN FACT, are now the Racists.”

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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 1st 2020, 3:13am

Leeann_93 wrote:Sure it’s not baking soda left over from cleaning a battery spill?

I have never used baking soda anywhere near the van and I've had the van since it was three years old. I have only noticed it the past few years and all of my batteries have been sealed.

Since it's occurring around a major wiring centre I am inclined to think it's related to electrolysis. Just wondered if anyone else had noticed the same condition.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 1st 2020, 3:16am

sixsix wrote:Man after my own Heart - 6 Photos ( nice ones, too, I add ) of Baking Soda.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


I'll go taste it and let you know. 8-) I seem to recall cleaning it up once and it re-appeared. It's like the stuff you'd get on the old bolt-on battery terminals, that's why electrolysis comes to mind.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby Rod's Trucks » October 1st 2020, 3:42am

One other possibility:
If it is only on some aluminum parts, it could be something attacking the aluminum. Some aluminum will begin to sluff off a white powder as a result of being attacked by chemicals. It is sort of like electrolysis, but my uderstanding of electrolysis is that it happens between two dissimilar metals.
I have large heavy aluminum plate that had a fertilizer bag on it for about a year. I found that bag had somehow gotten wet and tossed it in the trash. That piece of aluminum keeps shedding a white powder, even after leaving it out in the rain all winter, and then drying it out. In my case, I do not have any other metals that touch the aluminum plate.
There is nothing but a wooden floor and a wall stud, which is is now leaning against. It is still slowly sluffing off the white powder.
A chemist friend had a name for it, but I cannot recall what it was. He says once the aluminum starts the reaction, it WILL continue unless it is somehow stopped by an expensive chemical process. I figure; I really do not need the plate, and being 1/2" thick, it may take a very long time to eat through it. Probably longer than I will be around.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 1st 2020, 5:53am

Rod's Trucks wrote:One other possibility:
If it is only on some aluminum parts, it could be something attacking the aluminum. Some aluminum will begin to sluff off a white powder as a result of being attacked by chemicals. It is sort of like electrolysis, but my uderstanding of electrolysis is that it happens between two dissimilar metals.
Thanks Rod, when I used th word electrolysis I meant there was an electrical current involved. I realize electrolysis is more like material being removed from one electrode and deposited on another, like when putting chrome on a bumper.

Started thinking based on your post. Aluminum can be affected by oxidation which produces a white powder, likely aluminum oxide. I think the back of the box where the powder is located may be aluminum. Anodizing is a desirable effect where aluminum subjected to an acid like sulphuric acid while an electrical current is flowing through the aluminum will deposit a protective coating on the aluminum.

However, one photo related to galvanizing corrosion caught my eye because the powder produced look like the powder on my van. Galvanic corrosion is described as : "Galvanic corrosion is why you need a duplicate set of tools for aluminum work which are never used on steel. It exists when aluminum touches a dissimilar metal in the presence of a corrosive liquid and electrical current path. Commonly, this means that aluminum, steel and any trace of water which isn’t distilled starts corroding the aluminum".

I might add that the corrosive liquid is not always required. In the electrical field, whenever we splice an aluminum wire to a copper wire we have to use No-Ox, a compound applied to the wire ends before twisting then together. Otherwise the current through the splice causes corrosion.

You can see the effect at the following link on the photo following the galvanic corrosion section.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2018/06/05/the-three-major-types-of-automotive-aluminum-corrosion/

I am reasoning that if the backing plate/chassis of the wiring centre is grounded to the van chassis, there would be an electrical current running through the joint. The aluminum would be contacting a dissimilar metal and maybe at some time, some battery acid dribbled down the side and onto the connection. Don't know when that could have happened but I've had the breather holes open on the battery for testing and topping up and maybe some dribbled over the side of the battery.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby Rod's Trucks » October 1st 2020, 6:31am

Gordo999,
That was a great article on the aluminum corrosion. I have seen most of them, but had no idea they were that different, and had specific names. Nasty stuff!
I feel sorry for the automotive body shops. They will probably have a tough few years trying to get used to the new procedures for dealing with the issue of aluminum structural and panel repairs. And the little guys; who work out of very small shops, and are probably doing much of the smaller jobs and lesser quality repairs, may not even be aware of the related issues.

I am quite familiar with No-Ox, and similar products.
I was an industrial maintenance 'engineer'; better known as a 'Jack of All ( well, at least many) Trades'
I did a lot of electrical work, but later I mainly did most of the diagnostic stuff, and let the new guys do most of the actual work. Well before i retired, I got into programmable Logic Controllers and the computer applications related to them.
I was very lucky to have a great manager who understood nearly all of what we were doing, and a young crew who were eager to learn. They taught me some new tricks also.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 2nd 2020, 6:08am

Rod's Trucks wrote: I was an industrial maintenance 'engineer'; better known as a 'Jack of All ( well, at least many) Trades'

Sounds a lot like me except I did it with three main trades: as an electronics tech, an electrician, and a computer technician. In between I dabbled in metal fabrication. I was never beyond labouring...using a goon spoon.


Rod's Trucks wrote: I did a lot of electrical work, but later I mainly did most of the diagnostic stuff, and let the new guys do most of the actual work. Well before i retired, I got into programmable Logic Controllers and the computer applications related to them.
I started my own business and got a cushy job as a contractor at a major airport. Worked on the baggage conveyor systems which are all automated. Worked with PLCs and VFDs (variable frequency drive motor controllers).

The motors ran off a 600 volt line to line feed and we had to work in the control cabs with 347 phase voltages. A guy working in the same place got his thumb burned off by 600 volts. Nasty stuff, as is the 347 phase voltage. Whenever I stood in front of an open panel with 600 volts the hair on the back of my neck stood up straight.

I've done a fair amount of fibre optics as well. Developed my own means of testing the fibres roughly by taping the unfinished ends together and pointing them at an incandescent light bulb. On the other end, looking down each fibre with a 100x microscope, the light showed up as a full moon in a black sky. If I didn't get a full moon, I knew something was wrong with the fibre.

On one occasion, the moon was about 1/4 the size I expected. Took a long time to track it down but it turned out to be a manufacturing defect. The glass in the fibres was actually twisted around each other like the copper in a twisted pair.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby MechBob » October 2nd 2020, 2:50pm

It is corrosion from the battery off gassing. Even sealed batteries have pressure release vents.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby WoodButcher » October 2nd 2020, 3:52pm

Yes the batteries vent, rust and corrosion in the battery tray area is common.
Why GM.would choose to use alum parts in that area is a mystery to me.
Galvanic corrosion, I think of the zincs on a wood boat in salt water. 12 volts, brass and steel, (prop, shaft and rudder) metals will corrode fast, bolting a zinc to this it will be destroyed first.
I'm not entirely sure (don't remember) why but I think it has to do with the softness of the zinc. As a kid working on boats I replaced dozens.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby Rod's Trucks » October 2nd 2020, 5:17pm

Woodbutcher,
You have the right idea, but the 'softness' is not quite right. Tin and lead are much softer than Zinc, and copper is very close.

With dissimilar metals in the electrolysis process, one metal will have will have a higher voltage potential than the other. That is why there is a current flow, and it is the current flow that generates the electrolysis process.
(An old carbon-zinc flashlight battery uses the zinc at the positive electrode)
An electrolyte is the the medium through which the electrical current can flow between the two dissimilar metals. If the metals are in direct contact, there is often the possibility of just a very small layer of moisture, but because there is nearly always some impurity in that moisture, the possibility of setting up an electrolytic cell is there. ( I may have the wrong term: it may be galvanic cell in this case)
Zinc is a common metal, easy to work with, and just happens to be one with a higher potential than most other metals, so it becomes the sacrificial electrode in the process. Current will flow from the zinc ( slowly eating it away) and the idea is for it to slowly be eaten, and not your propeller or boat hull.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 3rd 2020, 7:51am

MechBob wrote:It is corrosion from the battery off gassing. Even sealed batteries have pressure release vents.
Good point. Thanks. Come to think of it, my battery is likely not sealed since it has two caps with three plugs in each one.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 3rd 2020, 7:55am

WoodButcher wrote:Yes the batteries vent, rust and corrosion in the battery tray area is common. Why GM.would choose to use alum parts in that area is a mystery to me.

Hey WB, long time no see, how's it going? I need to look closer at the wiring centre to see how it's set up. I used to know the name for it but my memory has lapsed. If they did use aluminum near the battery it's kind of dumb.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 3rd 2020, 8:18am

Rod's Trucks wrote: Zinc is a common metal, easy to work with, and just happens to be one with a higher potential than most other metals...

I think the word is electronegativity, the ability of an element to attract electrons to it. I am theorizing that the older batteries used zinc as the can and negative electrode. They used a carbon solid cylinder as the positive electrode. The electrolyte was ammonium chloride in the general puspose batteries so Zn + 2Cl -> ZnCl2 + 2e.

Now, an electrical engineer will try to tell you electrical current flows from +ve to -ve, therefore they call the above reaction the anode oxidation reaction since their current, the mysterious and mythical +ve charge, flows +ve to -ve. But we who have worked in the field know better, electrons are the charge carriers and must flow negative to positive. Therefore the zinc can must be the cathode.

I am trying to find an EE who can explain how the positive charges in a copper conductor can flow +ve to -ve when they are in the nucleus of each copper atom and bound solidly in place in a lattice. The only particle that can move is the electron and it travels slowly compared to electrical current, which moves at the speed of light. The electrons serve to transfer electrical charges at light speed.

BTW...zinc is also good for your prostate along with vitamin E.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby sixsix » October 3rd 2020, 5:36pm

gordo999 wrote: ... I am trying to find an EE who can explain how the positive charges in a copper conductor can flow +ve to -ve when they are in the nucleus of each copper atom and bound solidly in place in a lattice. The only particle that can move is the electron and it travels slowly compared to electrical current, which moves at the speed of light. The electrons serve to transfer electrical charges at light speed.

I know for sure... wife & I were just sayin' , we are on the edge of our seats.
.

Well, after all... what would Banacek say ?... “Everything needs to change except the asshole culture and stupid way of life of the avg. antifa, BLM follower - slobs, cowards, killers w/o any thought that they, IN FACT, are now the Racists.”

.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby N6KB » October 3rd 2020, 6:39pm

galvanic series noble metals.jpg
Where in the galvanic series a metal appears relative to other metals determines which metal will dissolve and which metal will get coated by the other metal in solution. When aluminum is near iron the aluminum looses. Attach some zinc and the zinc will become the sacrificial anode.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby gordo999 [OP] » October 4th 2020, 7:46am

sixsix wrote:I know for sure... wife & I were just sayin' , we are on the edge of our seats.

Hey 66, don't get me started on electrons and quantum theory. :D
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby MechBob » October 4th 2020, 4:00pm

"electrical current, which moves at the speed of light" I dispute this.
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Re: electrolysis/corrosion

Postby AstroWill » October 4th 2020, 10:07pm

I would clean it off again and just watch it to see if it returns. Not going to cause any problems there unless it is actually degrading the case to the point where it creates a hole.
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